Naturism and Body Image — The Midwest Naturist

A paper published last January in Britain looked into the effects of naturism on body image and self esteem. They correctly site the problem: “Negative body image in both women and men derives from exposure to, and pressure to achieve, unrealistic ideals of attractiveness.” We are bombarded daily with perfect body shapes in advertising, television, […]

via Naturism and Body Image — The Midwest Naturist

Are American Families Less Loving? – scraped from the wayback machine – archive of LDSSDF

All Forums | Family & Friend Relationships | Parents, Children and Family Nudity | Are American Families Less Loving?

 

bryans_saturdays

My family and I (myself, wife, two young kids) just returned from a week vacation in Orlando. I could spend hours talking about how much fun we had visiting the Disney theme parks, but what I wanted to comment on here was some observations I made while visiting the water parks.

The weather was fantastic: 80+ and sunny all week long. The tickets we purchased allowed us two days at the normal parks (Magic Kingdom, Animal Kingdom, and Epcot) and three days at the water parks (Typhoon Lagoon and Blizzard Beach). We found we actually enjoyed the two water parks more then the regular theme parks – less people, smaller parks, shorter lines, and most of all, we got to spend the day in swim suits playing in the water instead of fully clothes and sweaty in the larger, more crowded parks.

Anyway – and here’s my point – One of the fun things about visiting a place like Disney Land is the multitude of languages you hear being spoken all around. I served my mission in France and my wife speaks fluent Spanish. I heard plenty of those languages, some other European languages, and some I had no idea and couldn’t place.

I thoroughly enjoy watching people – I’ve made it a part time hobby. Since getting married and having kids I especially enjoy watching families and how family members interact with each other. It’s not often, however, that one gets the chance to see so many families from so many cultures gathered together in one small, enclosed location. It was down right fascinating!

I had two overall observations. (Well, okay, three. First, as Americans we are too over weight! But we all know that.) Second, and this is by no means a scientific conclusion, but it seemed to me that the Europeans I saw at the water parks we less concerned about bathing suits.

Bathing Suits:

Americans clearly SHOP for bathing suits, while Europeans, it would seem, grab what ever is handy. The American men I saw mostly wore the wild colored, stylish, and more expensive suits that hung down almost to their knees. Many of the European men I saw were literally wearing what looked like underwear. Others wore Speedo type suits or just something very plain and ordinary.

American mothers almost unanimously wore suits that were cleverly designed to hide that fact that their bodies have born children, with frilly skirts which hung down and made their bottoms as hidden as if they were fully clothed. Like their men, their suits were highly colored, very fancy, and clearly had been selected with great care.

European mothers, on the other hand, mostly wore plain, ordinary, mono-colored one-piece suits which made zero attempt to hide the fact they no longer had teenage bodies.

American and European teenage girls were all the same: minimal bikinis designed for maximum exposure of flesh. But there was a difference – not in the style of the suits but in the attitudes of the girls wearing them. The American girls knew they had nice bodies and walked with an air of “I KNOW you are looking at me.” Navels were pierced, skin was tanned to perfection, and the walk was honed to draw attention. They were, with out a doubt, immodest.

Not all, but many of the European teenage girls wore suits that were equally revealing, but in their behavior, in their attitude, and in their walk, there was very little bravado or show. There were no belly button rings, very few were tan, and most were just simply at the water park enjoying the day, and it just so happened that the occasion called for a bathing suit. There was nothing immodest about it.

Ultra Conservative Families:

There were the expectations to the teenage girls in bikinis – most notable when the teenagers were either American and overweight, or Americans from an ultra-consertative and often insecure family. Such families were easy to spot because they clustered together and were plainly scared and nervous to be too far apart from each other. The children wore their insecurities on their faces and in there eyes, and the girls were so embarrassed to be seen in public wearing a bathing suit that they shrunk behind their parents while waiting in line and folded or wrapped their arms around themselves in an attempt to reveal even less flesh then their conservative suits already didn’t show. The ultimate was a little family of four I spotted on several occasions… they all wore Disney t-shirts over their suits and behaved exactly as I just described.

Family Relations:

Third observation: Even much more interesting then the kind of suits people wore was the way in which family members interacted with each other. I first started to notice the stark difference between most American and European families as we were boarding a ride called The Family Raft.

While waiting in line I watched a cute little multi-generational family speaking what I’m pretty sure was Portuguese. Grandpa was in his sixties and wore cotton underwear which did nothing to reveal the fact that he was very, very male. Mom and Dad and son (about 12) wore suits like I described above – just something that got the job done. Their daughter (about 9 or 10) wore a small bikini which hung so loosely and showed so much that she might as well have been wearing nothing. She was a bouncy, bright eyed girl with no hint of shyness, and there was, at least in my eyes, nothing immodest about her suit. Many American mothers and fathers I know would faint dead away before letting their daughter be seen in something so revealing, but this family was clearly not thinking about or concerned about their bodies or their appearance – they were focused on being together and on having a fun time. I could tell by watching them, by the love that they all displayed for each other, and by the soft, kind, gentle manner they all interacted that this was a healthy family and that this little girl was not headed for an immoral life because of the suit she wore.

As this family all climbed into the rubber raft and got situated for the ride, they all wrapped arms around each other, intertwined their legs, and in a crowning moment of tenderness, the sister leaned over and kissed her older brother on the cheek just as they began the plunge down the slide.

Contrast this with the next time we rode the same ride. We were again in line behind a family, this time they were 100% American. Dad was immensely over weight and wore a t-shirt to hide it. Mom was skinny as a twig but still wore the fancy suit with a skirt to hide her hips and everything around them. They also had two kids about the same age as the first family, but the daughter was older. The entire time we were in line the two siblings argued and bickered about nothing end everything. The parents only paid attention to them when their fighting drew attention. As they climbed into the raft the sister shoved the brother away and complained loudly that he was hogging all the good space.

Ug.

I would like to think that I had, by dumb luck, happened upon two extreme examples. But as I continued to watch and observe families throughout the rest of the two days, it was all to clear that the American families I saw simply did not display the same level of tenderness, openness, and love towards each other as the Europeans. Plenty of American families were civil towards each other and didn’t fight openly like the one described above, but it was rare indeed to ever see American siblings holding hands or walking with arms over each others shoulders, or American parents openly displaying affection towards their children, etc etc. On the flip side, such behavior was common place amongst the non-English speaking families I observed.

What’s going on here? What is it that causes us to be so uptight and to be so withdrawn with our affections? Is there a link between our apparent inhibitions with our emotions and our obvious inhibitions with our bodies?

I am of the opinion that there is ABSOLUTELY a link between our inhibitions with our emotions and our inhibitions with our bodies. I’m not saying that the two are forcible exclusive – of course its possible to be free and giving with one’s emotions and still restrictive and shy about one’s body… but I also think it’s difficult. I think the two are very, very closely intertwined.

The flip side is also true… I believe that as we learn to loose our bodily inhibitions that we also learn to let our emotions run more freely. When we stop being concerned with “What do I LOOK like” we are more open to focus on “What do the people around me FEEL like.” The focus is removed from the shallow belief that the BODY makes the person, and is instead focused on the fact that the HEART makes the person.

But more importantly, the focus is removed from “Me” and “What do people think of me” and is instead placed on others, and what can I do to love others and help them feel the love I have for them.

In short, focusing on clothing is focusing on the outward manifestation of what is inside. When we focus first on what is inside, proper clothing will follow — or, better yet, clothing simply won’t matter.

I’ll end on the bouncy, bright eyed Portuguese girl. Her parents were not thinking “Oh dear! My daughter’s suit is immodest!” And unlike so many of her insecure American counterparts, she was not thinking “Oh my goodness, people are seeing me in a bathing suit. I’m SOOO embarrassed!” Instead she was thinking about how much fun and enjoyment she was having with her family, and as the ride was beginning, she wanted her bother to know that she was thinking about him and his well being, and as a token of her own self-confidence and of her affection for him, she gave him a kiss on his cheek.

I hope my own kids can be so brave, so un-self-centered, and so loving towards each other. I wish we ALL could.

 

Protecting our Children from this epidemic : Latest from the Church News – scraped from the wayback machine – archive of LDSSDF

All Forums | The LDS (Mormon) Religion & Nudism | Official LDS Church Position on Nudism | | Latest From the Church News

djw2000

While it’s still a long way from any official church position on nudity, an article in the March 10, 2007 issue of the Church News (subscription required) appears to be going in the right direction.

It starts by giving some shocking (at least to me) statistics:

Research indicates that by their senior year in High School, 100 percent of males have viewed pornography….In addition, the average first exposure of males to pornography is age 11.

So what’s the best way to protect your children from this epidemic?

Because pornography thrives in dark, secret places where teens learn to lie and deceive, the best defense against the problem is openness and communication, professionals say.

It then gives three suggestions to help:

  1. “…teach [your children] to feel the Spirit and recognize when it is no longer with them…”
  2. “…help children learn to regulate their emotions and cope with life…”
  3. “…parents should have regular, age-appropriate conversations with their children about healthy sexuality.”

To me, this last suggestion is the kicker. As further support, the following is from Jeffrey Robinson, a psychotherapist who holds a Ph.D. in marriage and family therapy:

There has been a tradition in the Church that you might create curiosity if you talk about things. The time has come where the danger of not talking far outweighs the danger of talking.

And from Rory Reid, a licensed therapist, author and program director for the Provo Counseling Center:

Brother Reid said studies report that teens who come from families where sex is not discussed openly “experiment with sex at an earlier age, are more likely to engage in unprotected sex, and have higher rates of teenage pregnancy when compared to teens who come from homes that have a more open climate towards issues of sex.”

As I said, all this comes far short of an endorsement of familial or social nudity, but it is completely consistent with it. After all, how better to create a home with “a more open climate towards issues of sex”? Not only that, but it can help to curb the natural curiosity about the bodies of those of the opposite sex that makes pornography so tempting.

While I’m sure it will still take a long time before nudity will be readily accepted within the Church, at least it looks like things may be actually be going that way.

bryans_saturdays

DJW,

Wonderful! Thank you for posting this. I need to get my hands on a copy of that issue.

Even if it does not, as you say, openly advocate chaste nudity in the home, it is still a giant leap forward. I hope this theme is repeated often and loudly… like in the upcoming General Conference in a few days.

“The danger of not talking far outweighs the danger of talking.” I wonder why this was such a hard concept for our parents to grasp? I guess it all goes back to culture… the further we get from the extremes of the Victorian society, the more willing and less ashamed we are to have these kinds of conversations with our kids.

Thanks DJW. Fantastic post.

Bryan

Elton

May I request permission to share djw2000’s post with the LDSSDC e-List?

Elton.

djw2000

Originally posted by Elton

May I request permission to share djw2000’s post with the LDSSDC e-List?

Elton.

By all means, go ahead.

djw2000

The article I referenced above (including the other six parts of the series) can now be accessed on the Deseret News website. (The one I referenced was part 2.)

James

Our wonderful bishop recently gave a presentation to the combined priesthood & Relief Society on this very topic, and quoted some of this material. He was very blunt about it and chastised the parents of teens in the ward for being so wishy-washy and lazy when it came to dealing with this stuff. He quoted the 100% have viewed pornography statistic, and an audible gasp went through the group, particularly the women. He told everyone to start being pro-active in helping their kids deal with this flood of garbage and one of the ways to do that was to have frequent, respectful but explicit talks about sexuality with them. He actually said “sex” and “sexuality” several times. In the chapel, even! I must admit that it was fun to watch a lot of the sisters, in particular, squirm and grimace each time he did so. I wonder if any of them will muster the courage to follow this wise bishop’s wise counsel; if they shuddered at just hearing the word “sexuality,” how will they be able to talk easily with their kids about it? “Traditions of the fathers” don’t just bind the ancient Lamanites!

I couldn’t help noticing that afterward, not a single parent talked with the bishop about what he’d said. They all headed for the exits PDQ. So I went to find him, shook his hand, and said I thought it was one of the best presentations I’d ever heard a bishop give on any subject, anywhere, I appreciated his candor and his bluntness and his clear concern for his flock, and I wished there could be more presentations as realistic and helpful as his was. I assured him I was doing everything he counseled, at an age appropriate level, for and with my kids. He seemed genuinely grateful for the feedback, perhaps because so far nobody else had said anything to him? I wonder.

I admire my bishop tremendously. I haven’t seen too many others who I think would have had the guts to do this. Wish there were more like him. I’d be curious to know if anyone else in the group has ever had a bishop who’s given this kind of instruction to their ward’s assembled adults.

bryans_saturdays

Originally posted by James

I’d be curious to know if anyone else in the group has ever had a bishop who’s given this kind of instruction

Sure haven’t. I admire his boldness.

yogaman

I admire my bishop tremendously. I haven’t seen too many others who I think would have had the guts to do this. Wish there were more like him. I’d be curious to know if anyone else in the group has ever had a bishop who’s given this kind of instruction to their ward’s assembled adults.

I haven’t seen it either. Sexuality contains too much baggage for most leaders, at least in public. Counsel is given mostly in private I think.

argonaut

Years ago I was responsible for arranging firesides for the Elders Q. in my Utah ward. I was at BYU at the time and had become friends with a very distinguished professor who was also the Dean of the Collage of Bio. and AG Sciences (A. Lester Allen). He had given a talk at BYU about how human reproductive technologies were changing and creating ethical and theological issues – such as whether or not a baby from an artificial insemination using sperm not from the father of a sealed couple is considered born “under the covenant” (they are).

The Bishop refused to allow the talk. No one was going to talk about sex in his ward! This Prof was also a Regional Representative (like Area Authority now) and succeeded in persuading the Bishop to allow the talk.

The Bishop came to the fireside and began to fume part-way through. He left before it was done. I was called into the Bishops office, released from my calling and severely reprimanded. But the reaction from most of the attendees was much different. I got more positive comments than any other fireside I had arranged. One couple with 6 young kids was very grateful to learn that they were not alone responsible for replenishing the entire world and that contraception was not prohibited by the church (as they had believed).

The fact is that there are people who sincerely believe that legitimate dialog on issues of sex is evil, and apparently that kids and adults are better off ignorant. If the Bishop is still alive, I can just imagine his anger at such an article appearing in the Church News!

James

argonaut

The fact is that there are people who sincerely believe that legitimate dialog on issues of sex is evil, and apparently that kids and adults are better off ignorant. If the Bishop is still alive, I can just imagine his anger at such an article appearing in the Church News!

Heaven help us. Though I’m sure this is true. Our wonderful bishop also said very bluntly that it is now more dangerous not to talk about these things with our kids than it is to be real frank with them, so parents, get over your discomfort and pull your heads out of the sand, most of you probably have no idea what your kids know (or think they know) or where they got it from. Ignorance and inaction (yours, parents) is no longer bliss, it can be fatal to your families. A very wise man, our bishop.

kwb

Again, this is a late post, but it is still and will always be timely.

I believe that one of the most fundamental reasons why pornography is so addicting is that there’s a VERY strong tie to the Maker of us all – our Heavenly Father. Look about us in all the world – for all intents and reasons, the creeping things, the fowls of the air, all life for the most part replicate themselves after their kind through sexual intercourse (or a form thereof). Makes one kind of wonder at times if the Lord Himself isn’t somewhat obsessed with the act/fact (and I only say that with only the deepest of respect). The point being – is that it comes from above, is God ordained, and is in and of itself a most wondrous and beautiful thing to behold. What happens though, as with any and all things given from God (which when given is pure and good) is that Lucifer wretches it into an adulterated form or concept, and then we go from there. (If procreation was accomplished merely by shaking hands, you can rest assured that Lucifer would have it tainted into something to be loathed, shunned, tempted out of appropriate circumstances, and finally, prick the heart of the offender to his/her utter destruction. If it wasn’t such a precious & MOST important gift from our Heavenly Father, it wouldn’t have the allure, or give Lucifer the power to manipulate it as he does. (I might also add, but won’t digress too much into it at this time, of why – in these latter days – the windows of technology has sprung forth as in no other age of mankind – it’s because the Lord has a work to do, and it can only be accomplished in this Telestial state by mortal beings, i.e., the work for the dead in the form of Genealogy – and the progression of the Church to accomplish the same. And it’s a race against time, because as soon as the Lord bequeaths a benefit upon us to help us accomplish His work, Lucifer will adulterate it. That’s why we now have all these marvelous toys & conveniences that have been deprived from our ancestors for thousands of years. Elements are the same, and we’re no smarter than they were – difference is that we are on the Lord’s errand. The destructive power of the Internet and other things are so great that even the very elect would fall except for time being cut short.)

That being said – namely that the attraction process, even the culminating act of sexual intercourse itself – has eternal significances (with emphasis on the plural of significances) both in this life and the life to come. Is it any wonder then, why we grasp at something that we’re not sure of or understand; why we’re drawn to something that seems “so right” but yet is “so wrong”? It’s because it is right – and beautiful and wonderful – at the right time in the right set of circumstances. But then Lucifer taints it.

What this (and other) forums have done for me is to help me realize that the body is the most wonderful of all our Heavenly Father’s creations – and so when I see it – that’s what I see, is wonderment and a sense of profound adoration & respect. Yet, without the knowledge of how this is separate from the adulterated concepts promoted by Lucifer, it becomes confusing as to how you can feel uplifted and close to the Spirit, while being condemned for it at the same time. The other aspect of it is the compulsive nature of it – when you grab a hold of something that you don’t quite understand – but holds you almost spellbound (forget the almost) – it’s hard to let it go until you have a comprehensive understanding of it. (Like catching a fish – and not wanting to let it go; or the proverbial basket tied to the ground in which monkey bait is placed – the monkey reaches in, grabs a hold of it, and won’t let go even though its life and/or freedom is in jeopardy. It has been said that the way out of a trap is to 1st know how the trap is made. And so it is.)

I firmly believe that we each have a little treasure chest, secured in our being. We guard it with absolute and utmost care. Anything and everything can go into our little treasure chests – some things good, some things not so good. As missionaries – we strive and work to gain the confidence of those we teach/taught so that they entrust us enough to open up their little treasure chests to us. Then, very carefully, we tenderly remove those things that ought not be there, and supplement it with things that ought to be there – particularly those things of the Spirit. If we take hold of something that is near & dear to the heart of our investigator – and in anyway give the impression that we think less of the individual or scoff at him/her for having it there in the 1st place – the lid to that little treasure chest comes crashing down, and we better not have our hand still in it or we’re apt to loose it!!

The reason I share the concept of the treasure chest is that it’s very important to note that when something comes out – something has to go back in, and generally that something needs to be as profound and meaningful to the individual as what was taken out. These things can be cultivated, but that usually takes constant care and attention. If we don’t replace that which was taken out by something of equal significance, then the vacuum created will suck the old thing back in. Will power only works for so long, but eventually gives in when the vacuum gets great enough.

To sum up – 1) pornography is evil, black, pernicious, and addicting. And the reason why is because it is counterpart to something that is so wonderful and very closely attached to the Source of all our beings. When we can understand that, and see it for what it is, it makes it easier to separate the good from the bad. It’s not being naked that is wrong or bad, but what one does with it (as with anything else that comes from God and is initially good). 2) Rooting it (pornography, etc.) out is almost sure to fail, unless a) one understands how it has such a grip, and b) replaces the urge/drive with something else equally powerful. And 3) the way out of the trap is with knowledge and understanding – to which this forum can be a powerful contributor and medium, especially when it comes to these sensitive and most sacred topics.

djw2000

knb,

Your post brought to mind a passage I recently read in Romans Chapter 7 (I’m going to quote from a modern translation since it’s a little more understandable than the KJV.)

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! Certainly, I would not have known sin except through the law. For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire something belonging to someone else if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of wrong desires. For apart from the law, sin is dead. And I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment sin became alive and I died. So I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life brought death! For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it I died.

[Romans 7: 5-11, New English Translation]

If I’m reading this correctly, it’s saying that you aren’t tempted to violate a commandment that you haven’t been given yet. However, once you are told to not do something, such as do not covet, suddenly you can hardly keep from being tempted about it. (As an aside, I’ve seen many child psychologists say it’s better to scold a child by telling them what they should be doing instead of telling them what not to do. The point is to fill their minds with positive, good imagery instead of negative, bad imagery.)

Romans 7 then goes on to talk about how difficult it is to do right since the flesh persists on doing evil even when your only desire is to serve God and do good. Sort of a “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is week” kind of situation. Paul finished by exclaiming in verse 24, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

Paul’s answer is in chapter 8. In essence he talks about the importance of the Holy Ghost in sanctifying us—of its miraculous power in delivering us from the power that sin has over our flesh. It’s only in losing ourselves to the power of the Spirit can we find our true selves (see for example, Matt. 10:39—He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.)

Sorry for the sermon, but this is my way in saying I agree with knb. Making our bodies taboo only serves to make them more desirable. Once you have fallen into that trap, the only way out is the redemptive power of the atonement. Naturism helps since it make the body less taboo, but the real answer lies in the Holy Ghost. He will replace the sinful desire with something more powerful than any sin: charity.

Family Showers – scraped from the wayback machine – archive of LDSSDF

All Forums | Family & Friend Relationships | Parents, Children and Family Nudity | | Family Showers

 

bryans_saturdays

A few days ago our family returned from a week long vacation in Orlando. (Longer post here.)

My mother and father in-law own a three bedroom time-share condo and every year on week nine, we have a Disney Land family reunion. My wife is the oldest of eleven children, many of whom still live at home, and it will be interesting to see how this tradition evolves as more kids get married and the grandchild count continues to rise. But, this time around it was a fabulous trip all around, and we are already looking forward to next year.

On Sunday morning we held a short and touching sacrament service in the condo, and them we packed up a picnic and headed for the beach. When we returned late in the evening, we were all sticky with salt water and covered with sand, and as we piled out of the rented mini-vans, my mother in law said “Ok, group showers for everyone!”

I know her well enough to know that she was kidding, but I also decided to seize the moment.

“That’s what we do” I said.

“But wait… you wear your swimming suits, right?” exclaimed my thirteen year old sister in law.

“That would defeat the purpose of getting all the way clean.” I replied with a smile. (We had a similar conversation about a year ago, but apparently it didn’t sink home that time. I wrote about it here: http://www.ldssdf.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17)

“EWWWW!” said my sixteen year old sister-in-law. “If I were to see my dad’s we-we I would absolutely FREAK OUT!”

“I saw it once on accident” said the thirteen year old “and I HATED IT. I don’t ever want to see it again!”

“That’s just plain SICK that you guys all shower together” said the sixteen year old.

“Actually, it’s very healthy” said my mother-in-law. I was shocked. Had I heard her correctly? “When I got married” she continued “I had never seen one before. Tampons were this big” she made a small circle with her fingers, “and my new husband was THIS big” she made a much bigger circle. “I was scared to death of that thing!”

I was impressed that she would mention tampons and sex so freely infront of her girls, and I was also amused that this was the reason she thought it was healthy for my daughter to see me naked.

“Does your daughter see you that way often?” my mother-in-law asked me.

“I would say probably on a daily basis.. or at least close to it” I replied.

“What about modestly? How does that figure in?”

“Modesty” I replied “I think has much more to do with a persons state of mind then the clothing they are wearing. Of course it’s important to dress modestly, but that does not mean that being undressed automatically implies lack of modestly.”

I could see in her eyes that she was listening and processing what I was saying. I honestly expected some sort of mild argument or protest, but there was none. She just listened, then nodded when I was done.

Later that night when my wife and I were in bed and all was quiet, she told me about a short conversation that had occurred when I was not around. The two sisters (thirteen and sixteen) had confronted my seven year old daughter.

“Hey [name], is it true that you see your dads we-we almost every day?”

“Huh?” my daughter replied.

“His we-we! Do you really see him naked all the time?”

“Yea. So what?”

“And you see his… thingy?”

“You mean his PENIS?” she said the last word very slowly, apparently irked at their refusal to use the proper word.

“Right. You actually see it?”

This time she didn’t reply. She simply gave them a blank, confused stare and walked away.

My wife concluded the short recap by saying that our daughter simply was not able to make any sense of their curiosity or fascination.

And that is exactly what we had in mind when we decided to raise our kids in a “no-closed door” family.

tom_went_fishing

I could see in her eyes that she was listening and processing what I was saying. I honestly expected some sort of mild argument or protest, but there was none. She just listened, then nodded when I was done.

Bryan,

Your mother in law seems a gentle soul. Over the years mine has softened. Shortly after being married and purchasing our home, she politly but firmly expressed her fear that I was corrupting her daughter by taking her skinny dipping in our back yard. Never mind our yard is seven acres large, well populated with thick trees, and can not be seen by any neighboors. We went through it again when our daughter was born. “Of course you will stop that naked in your yard nonesense now” she said to my wife.

I don’t think she knows we skinny dip with relatives as well. Good heavens!

Tom

n/a

bryans_saturdays

A few days ago our family returned from a week long vacation in Orlando…

My mother and father in-law own a three bedroom time-share condo and every year on week nine, we have a Disney Land family reunion. My wife is the oldest of eleven children, many of whom still live at home, and it will be interesting to see how this tradition evolves as more kids get married and the grandchild count continues to rise. But, this time around it was a fabulous trip all around, and we are already looking forward to next year.

On Sunday morning we held a short and touching sacrament service in the condo, and them we packed up a picnic and headed for the beach. When we returned late in the evening, we were all sticky with salt water and covered with sand, and as we piled out of the rented mini-vans, my mother in law said “Ok, group showers for everyone!”

I know her well enough to know that she was kidding, but I also decided to seize the moment.

“That’s what we do” I said.

“But wait… you wear your swimming suits, right?” exclaimed my thirteen year old sister in law.

“That would defeat the purpose of getting all the way clean.” I replied with a smile…

a couple of comments:

a) it might be good to shower (at first) with s.suit on so it gets cleared of salt water w/out contaminating the rest of a laundry load…

b) don’t ya (we ALL) just love stories where the positives of nudism/nudity/ naked ‘modesty’ and family openness can be shared by people who are close, & willing to listen/discuss things without guile?

get with it, teen agers; nudity takes the edge off sexuality/hormones/curiosity AND the rush of bad/biased info & attitudes most(at least Many) non-nudists have that you’ll easily pick up at school (and church). what a shame…

Ravenwarbird

When I was 14 I had a job babysitting a 16 year old autistic boy. It was really easy to be honest. He could not talk much and did not do much plus he was really obedient. If you asked him to do something he would do it. I would watch him three nights a week most weeks and the hardest thing to do was to put him to bed and like I said before, that was easy. All I had to do was tell him to go to bed and maybe help him get dressed . However every once in awhile his dad (wife left or died, I did not ask)would get called to work on his off days and he would call me to sit for him. The first time this happened he called me at his house from work to ask me to give his son a bath. That was odd for me, I was use to bathing kids but not a boy two years older than me. Also I discovered that the bathtub was not big enough to get most of him in the water. He did most of the work, just needed someone to help out and wash his hair. The next time the dad asked me to bath his son I mentioned that the tub was small and he told me that usually he give his son a shower. I was like DUhh, why did I not think of that. So I gave him a shower but washing his hair was not easy as he was taller than me and I ended up very wet. The next time I got the off day call the sit I had a plan, I brought my swim suit so I could get in the shower with him and not get my clothes wet. Well that was the plan, I somehow left the swim suit at home. So I just figured, what the heck I don’t care the idea was dumb anyway. So I helped him get undressed then took off my clothes as well. If seemed only fair that since he was naked that I should be too and it was a lot easier to help out if I am in the shower with him. I even figured out that if he kneels down I can wash his hair. It was fun and I often did not get dressed until after putting him to bed. To me knowledge he had no concept of sex or the differences between a girl and a boy so I saw no harm in being naked around him. I also learned that his father also showered with his son. I only had the job for a year though until they moved and got a live in sitter.

mfletch7

I also have an austitic son who is 10 years old. He is sometimes difficult to deal with but has become easier as he has gotten older and is a lot of fun most of the time.

At our home we have a fairly large soak tub in the master bathroom and a regular shower/bath in the other bathroom. If we use the soak tub we all use the soak tub. My oldest son goes first, locking the door, then I give the youngest three children a bath, then I, then my wife take a bath, without emptying it in between. The bath is Japanese style and has space outside the bath to wash off. We also have a rain shower head that is in the space outside the bath for showering before getting in to soak. However on most nights we simply use the other shower (it is a lot faster and uses significantly less hot water). On these nights I shower with my autistic son. It is not at all cumbersome. He does quite well in the shower.

iu4dc

I thought this would best fit under the topic of family showers…recently I learned from my parents that my brother, who is married and has two girls (2 mo. and 2 years) still showers with the 2 year old girl. my parents and wife all expressed their uneasiness with this situation to me, but i told them i didn’t think it was a big deal. i’ve never discussed it with my brother, but it seems that he is a bit more easygoing about nudity than the rest of my family. i have always been comfortable being naked, my wife knows i like to be naked at our apartment, and i fully intend to shower or bathe with our 6 month old son. i am slowly getting my wife to be more comfortable with her body, but shes extremely shy, especially after having a baby. she doesnt feel sexy or comfortable with her body right now, so she doesnt even like to get naked in front of me really – needless to say our sex life has almost disappeared! but back to the topic, i am glad to find that my brother is comfortable raising his daughter to view nudity as acceptable. i wish the rest of my family would catch on.

bryans_saturdays

Last week my wife and I were visiting with my wife’s brother and his wife. Not sure how it came up, but my brother-in-law’s wife asked the question “What is your view on letting your kids see you naked? We’re not sure what to do about it, but like right now, my husband still takes showers with our daughter (four years old), and of course she doesn’t think anything about it, but we’re just wondering if that needs to stop sometime soon.”

My wife spoke up first. “Who cares? What’s the big deal, anyways? It doesn’t need to stop at all.”

I added, “You should have seen us last night. After swimming in the pool (we were staying at a hotel) all four of us were naked in the bathroom taking turns rinsing off in the shower.”

This seemed to satisfy both my brother-in-law and his wife.

Bryan

mfletch7

I have one friend who knows that I have interest in naturism. He is still somewhat ambivolent regarding whether or not social naturism is alright but has been adanemant from the first that bathing with your children regardless of age is not in the least bit strange. He has an two teenage daughters and though they don’t takes baths together anymore (the bath is too small) they see each other in the bathtub from time to time. He says that such practices are strictly within the family.

Ravenwarbird

Just a little thing of interest. I was talking with a friend in my Ward during Home Evening about stuff and modesty and we got on the topic of in-family nudity. She told me that it was quite common for her family to share a bathroom. You know, use the same bathroom at the same time, like bryans described. She also told me that she use to shower with her little brother until he turned 12 and she showered with her older sisters until she was 14 I think. She also told me about a time her father walked in on her when she was pre-teen. She did not say her exact age but since her father made a joke about seeing her naked to her mother, saying that it looked like she was ready for a training bra; I would say she was 11 or 12.

I will now go off on a tangent. Pleas stand by. I have never really like the term “Training Bra”. It make me think of a training mouth piece for a horse, a bit or a saddle. Why do I have to be trained to wear this thing? OK, I will admit that it does take some getting use to and dexterity to get them on and off but still the term Training bra never sat well with me.

Also something that has caught my attention, I have mentioned it before in regards to Guy’s sisters. Guy is the guy I hung out with in my Drama Club if you remember. I have seen it more recently but Guy’s sisters were like under 9 years old but both of them wore training bra’s. I just don’t get why, I am sure they did not need them and it gave new meaning to the whole “Training” concept. I compare it to the old Chinese foot binding practice. Get them when they are young so they never know different.

Why would a girl without breasts need a bra? If you took a photo of an eight year old boy and girl from the neck to the waist line, I bet you could not tell the difference or want gender they are. And lets face it, where are men with bigger breasts then me yet they don’t have to wear a bra or even a shirt if they don’t want to. What is up with that?

kwb

Ravenwarbird

… And lets face it, where are men with bigger breasts then me yet they don’t have to wear a bra or even a shirt if they don’t want to. What is up with that?

Ummmm… Don’t wear ’em, I guess?!! Boycott bras! (JJ)

_____________________

Born again nudist…

Ravenwarbird

I would but then I would also get a lot of dirty looks and guys would be looking at my chest a lot more and that is rather annoying. Plus I have to wear a bra at work, it is in the dress code, I thought that funny that they were go to the trouble of putting that in. Must have had a problem with that in the past. Like the warning on the side of a chainsaw that says “Do NOT stop blade with hand or groin.” You have to wonder, did someone really try that so now the company has to warn you not to.

 

Bra’s are good for somethings or some activities. Bouncing is not as fun as it looks and can hurt, that is all I will say on that.

FullMonty

To those of you that wear bras, and I don’t think it really that many on this forum, you may find this article interesting http://www.all-natural.com/bras.html

Plus I have to wear a bra at work, it is in the dress code, I thought that funny that they were go to the trouble of putting that in.

I can’t imagine a business dress code that would requite wearing a bra unless your uniform is fairly opaque or tight.

My wife is of average size but rarely wears a bra, unless the shirt is tight, it’s not so much about concealing nipples as it is covering undershirt marks. Usually with business dress you can get away with it quite well.

I will now go off on a tangent. Pleas stand by.

A Tan Gent? I think you’ll find quite a few around here!

I have never really like the term “Training Bra”. It make me think of a training mouth piece for a horse, a bit or a saddle. Why do I have to be trained to wear this thing? OK, I will admit that it does take some getting use to and dexterity to get them on and off but still the term Training bra never sat well with me.

At such a young age, isn’t the training bra more like a badge of growing up than a functional device? I see the young women wear them proudly. I don’t have daughters, so it’s never been an issue in my house. Enlighten us Raven, or those with daughters.

Ravenwarbird

FullMonty

At such a young age, isn’t the training bra more like a badge of growing up than a functional device? I see the young women wear them proudly. I don’t have daughters, so it’s never been an issue in my house. Enlighten us Raven, or those with daughters.

I did not have a problem with wearing them and if I did that would explain why I needed to to trained. I just did not like the term “Training”. It seemed demeaning to me, I might have to do with teasing. I don’t recall my brothers teasing me about it but I have heard about some girls being teased about having to be trained to wear clothing.

OK, yes I did take more than a little pride in the fact that I was a woman now because I needed a bra. It is a rite of passage, or as you put is a badge of honor. It says to the world that I am a big girl now because I have Breasts!!

Yet I still have a little pet peeve about parents who start their girls to early. Although the age of puberty for girls and boys to a slightly lesser degree has been declining. An astounding fact that I learned is that in the 1700’s to mid 1800’s girls did not get their first period until they were nearly 18. Now girls are “Developing” far to soon. Now it may be necessary or young girls to start wearing bra’s at 7. I heard of a girl that by the age of 11 she was a “C” cup. That is not natural. Yeah she might have had some hormonal imbalance thing but still you get my point.

Wait a minute, is not this thread called “Family Showers”? Me thinks we may have gone a ways off topic.

FullMonty

Wait a minute, is not this thread called “Family Showers”? Me thinks we may have gone a ways off topic.

Ahh yes, like most topics on the forum.

Family showers… my boys are teenagers now, don’t think it’ll happen.

wantfirsttime

my daughter (6) is a few years away from that time of life. i have a pretty good relationship with her and i hope it is strong enough that if she needs help with her bra she feels comfortable coming to me if my wife is busy

kwb

Welcome to the forum, wantfirsttime! (Just curious, after your firsttime, are you going to change your name?

_____________________

Born again nudist…

FullMonty

Since we’re talking about family showers I just have to ask how many of you shower with your spouse on a regular basis?

My wife and I have showered together since day one, the shower in our dungeon apartment was so small that it could barely fit us, let alone the water and the soap. It’s always been a way of life for us and we’ve never hidden it from our kids. Even to this day our kids will walk into the bathroom to ask us a question while we’re showering or park on our bed watching TV in direct view of the shower(it’s all glass).

What’s it like in your house?

guido

We’d probably do it if we didn’t have such a tiny shower. And when we do, it always ends up in the other room if you know what I mean. We never do it just for the heck of it.

Captain Curmudgeon

Used to be a t-shirt:

“Save Water: Shower Together.”

Naturally,

R.O.

Captain Curmudgeon

And just last month (April), it was the theme at Do The Green Thing, source of that really funny human / penguin video about “Using Body Warmth.”

I checked out the water-saving videos and the first two I watched were about showering with others.

Naturally,

R.O.

nude_explorer

Raven

You make me smile. I am so glad you are here.

argonaut

nude_explorer

Raven

You make me smile. I am so glad you are here.

Agreed. Raven’s stories and perspectives are refreshing and delightful.

joserab

and argonaut’s wisecracks are the icing on Raven’s story cake!

joserab

“bare jose”

hairybare

We had at one time a large shower with two independent shower heads, me and the wife showered together often, we both showered with the kids until they felt uncomfortable(puberty), we were all in there(four kids two of each) at one time a few times. Also had a large jetted tub that was used by everyone often.

Naked does not equal naughty.

Hairybare

ddoger

We shower together. Always have even when it was just a shower head in a small tub. We now have a spacious walk in shower with dual heads. I built my own house and will often show off my hard work. When people see the shower they will often ask “why the 2 shower heads?” I just smile.

joserab

capt c: Used to be a t-shirt: “Save Water: Shower Together.”

Actually, didn’t it say “Save Water. Shower With Your Steady.”?

joserab

“bare jose”

Ravenwarbird

Since my life make all of you so happy I will share more of it.

Truthfully I was going to post this anyway and was surprised to read that you liked them so.

So anyway last night I took a shower so today I smelt quite nice thank you. No really there is more and if you don’t believe me then look down, no not that far, look below what you are reading right now. See there is more stuff there.

Now that that is out of my system (for now) I will continue. As many of you might recall I have said on occasion that I shower with my eyes closed as I have very poor eye sight and it is less confusing that way. So last night I finished showering and opened my eyes as I exited the shower. To my surprise nothing happened, well OK that was not all that surprising but the fact that I still could not see anything at all was. I blinked a few times to make sure my eyes really were open. Yes they were but still everything was pitch black, I do not have a window in the bathroom. So I dried off went to my room and got dressed all in the dark, and I even managed to put my shirt on straight and a clean one. We had a power outage that lasted about 10 minutes after I found out about it. My brother said I was more like 20 minutes long but like I said I shower with my eyes closed so did not notice when the light went out.

It was a bit odd getting dressed and toweling off in the dark, I often walk through my house in the dark at night, which makes sense as that is the time when it IS dark, that or early in the morning but I try to be asleep then.

OK so that had little to do with being naked other than me being naked while showering but that is not uncommon or news to anyone. I am sharing it because it was interesting to me to have to do stuff in the dark that I usually don’t. It could be comparable to doing stuff in the nude that I usually don’t. It is just a different perspective to the ordinary.

Also it reminded me of two other things one of which I was thinking of sharing and will now that I have your attention.

A few days ago I went over to my parents house for my Dads birthday dinner. We celebrate my fathers birthday very different that we do my mothers. This dinner was at home and quite casual where as for my mother we dressed up and went to a restaurant.

So I was down stairs checking on my grandkids (no not mine. I got to playing with them when the oldest asked me,

“Do you pee in the shower?”

“um..No, not that I recall.”

We talked more and after some reverse engineering of her responses I gleaned how she came to ask me if I pee in the shower.

She is almost 11 and was at school with her friends and somehow got on the topic of taking a bath and one said that he did not like how once you got in the tub you suddenly had to pee when you did not have to before so now you have to get out of the tub and pee naked. I wondered how and why peeing naked really made any difference. This is when a girl said that is why showers are better, you don’t have to get out to pee, you can go right in the shower and no one will know.

Well no one will know if you are alone and most times a guess you would be but someone would know, you. That is kind of what went through my mind at the time alone with a bunch or other stuff I do not recall nor is all that relevant. So that is how she came to ask me. It is interesting how kids minds work.

The second story I was told I just remembered shortly before typing this as I was thinking about what to say. Unfortunately I do not recall who told me about it or when I happened or even exactly who was involved. All I do recall is that the person who told me about it had to take a shower with someone so they showered in the dark in order to avoid seeing each other and being seen in the nude. I assume it was a male and female involved as I don’t see much reason two people of the same gender would go to such lengths so avoid being seen nude. Also I will make the leap that the people involved were over the age of 10 as that is about the age when kids start showering alone. Funny that I did not recall it until now but I guess having showered in the dark jogged my memory. Now that I can remember it reminds me just to what length people will go to not see or be seen naked. If it really was two guys or girls then I really would laugh or rather I would have laughed at the time. Honestly I would have to say that if it was two kids of the same gender it would likely have been two boys as girls are less concerned about been seen naked by their friends. Although it is hard to say as girls are more likely to have body issues and would not want anyone to see them naked.

How I really wish I could remember in not just to stop all the questions from not knowing.

 

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day.

CatholicGuy

Wow, those are some stories. Especially the last one. That’s bizarre.

CatholicGuy

Ravenwarbird

So I was down stairs checking on my grandkids (no not mine. I got to playing with them when the oldest asked me,

“Do you pee in the shower?”

“um..No, not that I recall.”

We talked more and after some reverse engineering of her responses I gleaned how she came to ask me if I pee in the shower.

She is almost 11 and was at school with her friends and somehow got on the topic of taking a bath and one said that he did not like how once you got in the tub you suddenly had to pee when you did not have to before so now you have to get out of the tub and pee naked. I wondered how and why peeing naked really made any difference. This is when a girl said that is why showers are better, you don’t have to get out to pee, you can go right in the shower and no one will know.

Well no one will know if you are alone and most times a guess you would be but someone would know, you. That is kind of what went through my mind at the time alone with a bunch or other stuff I do not recall nor is all that relevant. So that is how she came to ask me. It is interesting how kids minds work.

George: I was there! I saw a drain!

Elaine: Since when is a drain a toilet?

George: It’s all pipes! What’s the difference?

Noodles

CatholicGuy

George: I was there! I saw a drain!

Elaine: Since when is a drain a toilet?

George: It’s all pipes! What’s the difference?

I know who Elaine is, but who (by George!) is George??!

Ravenwarbird

I don’t know who either is, just figured it was some reference I am to young to know about. Although I think I know who they are now but still am not sure.

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day.

argonaut

Apparently George and Elaine are characters from a TV show called “seinfield”. I have never seen the show so I wouldn’t know for sure, but that is what I gathered from a simple internet search.

Noodles

argonaut

Apparently George and Elaine are characters from a TV show called “seinfield”. I have never seen the show so I wouldn’t know for sure, but that is what I gathered from a simple internet search.

Ummm… Now that you mention it, that would make sense – Sienfeld is one of my daughter’s favorite sitcoms and we used to watch it regularly (and I’ll have to admit, I got more than a few chuckles out of it myself). And the comment would be in harmony w/ the characters in the show. Good job, Argonaut!

wantfirsttime

argonaut

Apparently George and Elaine are characters from a TV show called “seinfield”. I have never seen the show so I wouldn’t know for sure, but that is what I gathered from a simple internet search.

yes George and Elaine are characters from Seinfield it take place in new york

there was this one time jerry was on the subway going some place and this guy was sitting across from him nude and for a good share of this show jerry and this nude guy talked

in fact the writers for the show has had episodes with nudity in it

coveresid

Yes this was from Seinfield and they had a show discussing how George got caught peeing in the shower at the Gym and he was going to be turned in and banished from the gym. The quotes were some of the dialoge from the show as they were discussing this practice. I also remember one episode that Jerry had a girlfriend that was a nudist and she was always nude when in his apartment. It was very funny as I remember, but can’t remember the details. I would like to see that one again.

Ravenwarbird

Yes, that was the show I was thinking of but I have never seen it, only parts and references. Sounds interesting though maybe I should look into it more.

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day.

CatholicGuy

coveresid

Yes this was from Seinfield and they had a show discussing how George got caught peeing in the shower at the Gym and he was going to be turned in and banished from the gym. The quotes were some of the dialoge from the show as they were discussing this practice. I also remember one episode that Jerry had a girlfriend that was a nudist and she was always nude when in his apartment. It was very funny as I remember, but can’t remember the details. I would like to see that one again.

Yes I remember that episode. It reflects a common attitude about nudity … At one point the girlfriend asks Jerry why he’s naked (hitherto, she had been the only one going around the apartment naked) to which Jerry responds “I thought naked was good?” Eyeing him critically she says “This isn’t good-naked.”

Afterwards, Jerry is talking about this with Elaine, who explains to him that naked isn’t a good look for a man.

Sound at all familiar? Remind you of any society you’ve lived in? Naked is a good only if you are good-looking, and/or only if you are a woman. (At the end of the episode, they decide to both wear clothes; then they break up. As Jerry explains “We couldn’t carry on a conversation. I kept trying to picture her naked, she kept trying not to picture me naked.)

P.S. Having said that, let me add that it isn’t clear whether the producers of the show endorse that attitude or not.

coveresid

Thanks for the summary CatholicGuy of the episode. Like I had said, I couldn’t remember the details exactly, but the ending was like you mentioned and is so typical of the thought on nakedness. Can only be naked if you are female and good-looking. I guess it plays along with having a light hearted presentation of nudity with comedy and not rocking the boat so to speak.

hairybare

I for one think this might be true; women do look better naked…the scrotum has to be the ugliest misshapen hairy thing ever created! Oh well just my opinion. I guess it had to have a word like scrotum tacked to it!

Naked does not equal naughty.

Hairybare

Cuan

I don’t think that the point was women looked better naked, but that there is naked and then there is ugly naked. One day Jerry decided to sand the floor with a belt sander while naked. His girlfriend wouldn’t allow him to do so explaining that it was an ugly naked. He made a comment that when she sneezed naked her whole body shook in an ugly naked way.

I don’t remember the whole episode, but that was the part that I remembered.

Ravenwarbird

That Seinfield episode keeps getting stranger and stranger.

I will share something I found interesting that I learned at FHE yesterday. We split up and went to Bishopric houses, my group played some sort of Book of Mormon (sure aids){sorry I don’t know how to spell it} game. Question, how to you get someone to say “Abinadi” in 15 seconds with only actions.

So anyway after the games we had ice-cream for a treat. This is when Sister Bishopric says to one of the guys there.

“I remember you from when you were four of five. Your sister and my daughter were on the same swim team and your mother would teach you how to swim during their practices, in the kiddy pool end of course. I remember you mostly because you enjoyed showering with the girls afterwards so much. So I have actually seen you naked. {laugh}”

Well he was quite speechless and stammered together, “..I…uh..I….um don’t remember that … at all.”

He was blushing and it is hard to tell normally due to his tanned skin colour but we could tell then all right. Then we all had a laugh at the situation as the Sister tried to clarify that last sentence. She did not mean it to sound like it did, only that she recalls him showering naked with the girls or the swim team who were also naked we were told. I assumed that they were but someone asked anyway. It was rather funny seeing them both get embarrassed. It was nice though to know that she felt comfortable around us enough to talk to us like that. I don’t know it you understand what I mean by that but often the “older” “Married” people don’t meld so well with we the single adults. They come off as Mothers or grandmothers, witch they are but this Bishopric Sister acted more like a peer than an elder. It was a all around good Home Evening.

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day.

CatholicGuy

Cuan

I don’t think that the point was women looked better naked, but that there is naked and then there is ugly naked. One day Jerry decided to sand the floor with a belt sander while naked. His girlfriend wouldn’t allow him to do so explaining that it was an ugly naked. He made a comment that when she sneezed naked her whole body shook in an ugly naked way.

I don’t remember the whole episode, but that was the part that I remembered.

You’re right, I did omit those details. And yes, that particular scene is more about “good naked” vs. ugly naked.

But later in the episode, the idea that naked isn’t a good look for a man does also come in. As Elaine says, a woman’s body is like a work of art, whereas a man’s body is utilitarian, like a jeep.

Cuan

CatholicGuy

You’re right, I did omit those details. And yes, that particular scene is more about “good naked” vs. ugly naked.

But later in the episode, the idea that naked isn’t a good look for a man does also come in. As Elaine says, a woman’s body is like a work of art, whereas a man’s body is utilitarian, like a jeep.

I tell that to my wife at times, “I’m nothing but a sport utility vehicle.” I need to see that episode again.

joserab

Ravenwarbird

(sure aids){sorry I don’t know how to spell it}

“charades”

joserab

“bare jose”

CatholicGuy

joserab

Ravenwarbird

(sure aids){sorry I don’t know how to spell it}

“charades”

joserab

“bare jose”

Spelling mistakes are common on just about every discussion forum I’ve ever been on. (It’s not like we’re writing term papers here, right?) But the funny is that on this forum, every once in a while I’ll see a spelling mistake, and for a second I won’t realize that it’s a spelling mistake. Like one time I saw the word “roamers”, and thought it was a Mormon thing that I’d never heard of before. (Then, after a second or two, I realized that “rumors” was meant.)

joserab

yesh, rwb have had a small private conversation about it. Some of the words we (any of us) choose and the spelling we use become really humorous. And even tho I’m a real stickler for it personally (was kind of a quasi-English teacher at one time), I don’t usually worry about it too much. Seriously, all I have to do is look in the mirror to see the last, current, and next guilty person.

I think it’s always been around; it’s just more noticeable with the internet and almost everyone blogging or foruming or whatever. If you look at some of the historical documents of the church, they are rife with spelling errors.

In this case, I merely wanted to offer the correct spelling since rwb seemed to request it almost and it really is a difficult word to even begin to figure out. It looks more like shah-rod in pronunciation to me. I remember the first time I came across it. I was surprised at how it was spelled.

joserab

“Lust begins in the heart, not in the eyes.”

CatholicGuy

Oh no, don’t tell me you’re one of those people that say “shah-rod”.

Another example, someone recently said something about “tracking”. So for a moment I’m picturing a missionary writing in some kind of journal about their movements each day. Then I said, “Oh, is that ‘tracting’?” (Fortunately, further down the page someone mentioned ‘tracting’, thus clearly up my confusion.)

CatholicGuy

CatholicGuy

(Fortunately, further down the page someone mentioned ‘tracting’, thus clearly up my confusion.)

I mean clearing.

Mr Moonella

I was talking to a friend at church, who has a 2 year old daughter – roughly the same age as mine. He said “I had my last bath with Hannah yesterday. She said ‘Snake?’, I said ‘No Hannah, it’s not a snake’. I’ll miss it though”. I replied that I didn’t think he needed to stop, and that my approach would just be to answer her questions and carry on as before.

Afterwards I didn’t think I’d made my point strongly enough, so when we were together later I said “Coming back to what you were saying earlier…” and told him that I really, really didn’t think he needed to stop having baths with his daughter, especially if he felt it was a good thing and that he was going to miss it, and that I’d hate to think that he would stop doing so because he felt it would be wrong in some way (I assumed that was the reason, adding that our culture seems to involve embarrassment about our bodies and that it’s wrong to be open about them, and that we therefore assume a church attitude that isn’t there etc).

He acknowledged quite openly that his daughter was obviously oblivious to any issues around it and that it was all about his own attitude, and he said he’d go away and think it over again.

That’s my missionary experience for the week.

Reflecting on it later on, I wondered whether his initial decision was down to his feeling uncomfortable that his daughter had spotted a difference in her daddy’s anatomy, rather than a feeling that it would be ‘wrong’ to carry on. Or a combination of the two. I guess most people feel that you can only have baths/showers with your kids (of the opposite sex at least) when they are very little, so there has to be a point where it stops, and I’ve heard several experiences which seem to indicate that people pick this sort of moment. In other words, they only feel comfortable when they think that their child hasn’t noticed the difference in genitals.

hairybare

In our family it stopped when the kid started to feel embarrassed around puberty. We had an open bathroom off the master bed room, no door except for the toilet. The kids felt and still do feel comfortable around us when we are nude, but most don’t feel comfortable being nude around us. If I had known what I know now I would have tried harder to make them completely at ease in there own skin.

Hairybare

argonaut

My wife was taking care of two 7-year old twins (boy and girl) last weekend. She kept an eye on them while they were in the shower (it is a steam shower and she did not want them to turn the steam on). I asked if they were embarrassed or hesitant to shower together or to have her watch. She said “no of course not, they are only 7”. I don’t know – what age do kids usually start to get embarrassed in our clothed culture?

When I was around 14 I had a medical issue and my mom told me to drop my pants. I was horribly embarrassed, and objected. She curtly reminded me that she was an emergency room nurse and had seen more naked males, and had handled more penises, than I could imagine, not to mention the fact that she was my mother and had changed my diaper etc…… – and informed me that my reluctance was absurd. I relented but it was very uncomfortable for me. I don’t remember what the medical issue was but I clearly remember the lecture.

I cant remember any incidence of being embarrassed about nakedness before that. I loved being naked with neighborhood kids (never any sex, just naked) when I was pre-pubescent – and had no problem in the locker room. Also at 14 my dad took me to a public steam bath and we were both naked. I was a bit unsure at the start but got over it quickly.

Ravenwarbird

I finally got to babysit my nieces and nephew, all of them, there are three girls now and one boy. Last week my brother got to sit on them, rather they sat on him I am sure, but only three as the oldest went to kickboxing with her mother. The oldest two have been sick the last few days so to got them all so their mother could go to class and then to a meeting. Funny story, my sister-in-law took her youngest who is only a few months old with her to the meeting so she could leave the meeting early because her child was acting up. Thing is the kid was to perfect and did not act up at all so her mother had to stay for all the meeting.

Baby sitting is a real workout, those kids love to be picked up, thrown and spun and of course if you do it to one you have to do the same thing to all of them. I also have to say that the oldest two only acted sick until their mother left, then they were active as ever, still sick but you would never know from watching them climb all over me. However the reason I am posting here is I think in the process of play the oldest one “got her panties in a bunch” (wow I never thought I could use that expression to literally) so she pulled her pajama bottoms and panties off got them straightened out and put them back on all while standing in the living room and without any attempt to hide. I will admit it brought a smile to my face as last time I baby sat she hid in the closet to change into her PJ’s. I also found out my nephew was not wearing any underwear but when I asked him why all he would say was “Because I wanted to” good enough for me.

This is not all, after I got them all to bed and told three stories off the cuff, they like them more than the ones from books, I was cleaning up a bit then the oldest came downstairs for some water. She wanted to say up with me a bit longer and I let her because her bed time had still not come so she could stay up until then anyway. Her bottoms were a bit large so she pulled them up often and got twisted easily. I commented that it would just be easier to not wear them to which she said, “Then you would see my underwear.”

“I can already see your underwear and did you not take them off, along with your underwear, not half hour ago? Besides I have given you and your siblings’ baths many times so I have seen you naked.”

“OK, yeah but do you walk around in your underwear at home?”

I was like, HOLY COW!! I did not see that coming in such a direct way.

Honestly I was sort of teasing her I did not think anything would amount from it. I think she would have been more comfortable without the overly large pants and I think secretly did want her to take them off for that reason. I also thing I secretly wanted something like this to happen.

“Well actually I do… at times (technically not a lie), but don’t tell your mother I don’t think she would want me telling you that. And I like babysitting you.” I felt a little guilty after saying that because it did not come out quite the way I wanted it to. To me I felt like I might have guilt’ed her a little.

“Really, does uncle —— know?”

“Yes, I think he knows.”

“OK” and with that she took off her pajama pants, “Now you!”

“Hey, I did not agree to that.”

“Yes you did, I did it now you have to.”

“OK, if you insist, guess I have no choice.” Inside I was doing back flips of joy. So I go to spend half an hour with my niece neither of us wearing pants. She even helped me put stuff away. I was then that I saw a car go by and thought that maybe I should close the big picture window curtains. You have no idea how happy I was and still am. I just hope this does not come back to bit me, I really do. But still it was an all around awesome night.

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day.

argonaut

Ravenwarbird

Funny story, my sister-in-law took her youngest who is only a few months old with her to the meeting so she could leave the meeting early

I have paid my kids to get me out of really boring sacrement meetings.

Rocketman

“I have paid my kids to get me out of really boring sacrement meetings.”

This reminded me of when I was a teenager, my youngest brother was a baby, I recall on more than one occasion pinching him until he started crying – then “volunteering” to take him out. I think my mom got wise to it, because we finished sacarment meeting in the halls, but when she took him out, they were back in a few moments.

RocketMan

Q – “Is that a rocket in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?”

A – Yes – It’s a really cool rocket!!! It’s an Alpha, and here’s a V-2 and here’s a Thumper, and a …

hadaka

From a recent article

However, as most parents can tell you, everyday is Happy World Nude Day for the toddler/preschool set. I’m not sure if this formula works for every small child, but at our house small boy + nudity + just stepped out of the bathtub = run free squealing and giggling until an adult catches you and carries you off to be diapered and pajama’ed.

If I could bottle and sell the unbridled joy that fuels the naked toddler romp I’d be one rich mama, but I’ll have to settle for being rich with the laughter and happiness that come from seeing my cute little nudist racing down the hallway and bouncing on the bed. It’s a better kind of rich.

Great attitude! I especially liked the last sentence. Let’s all be “rich”.

hadaka

Ravenwarbird

Something else that I learned over the time without a computer last week. I think it was when we were playing hide and seek in the coulee’s (You know you are YSA when you still play hide and seek with other 20+’s). I arrived late so was caught before I even got to hide, and I did not know the boundaries extended way farther than I was told. An odd point was that most of the people hid in the open areas and not in the forested ones. Also I found a small porcupine, it was cute.

The game was once found you have to help look the the rest of the people; this applies to me not knowing the total boundaries so only searching the half I knew of and the part where practically no one hid in, the forest. Another funny thing was you could spot the hunters in the group as they has full camo on, well they were harder to spot in the bush but I mean you could tell who hunted in the group.

So anyway back to my main point after all those interesting but not relevant tangents. I met up with a Sister and we searched together. As people are inclined to do we talked as we searched, not so good an idea while hunting but it was all fun and games until someone gets mased for stalking some joggers. I do not even know how we got on the topic but she told me that her grandma was moving to a nursing home, (That is the connection, my grandpa is looking to be put into a long-term care center. We do not expect him to live to see 2010.) and she found a bunch of shoe boxes in one of the closets all labeled with a name. They were full of photo’s of the person who’s name was on the box. She found her box and went through the photos and found one of her and her younger brother in their grandparents bathroom having a shower together, she figured she was like 12 or 13 in the photo and her brother 7 or 8. Thing is she has no memory of that or ever having a bath or shower with any of her brothers or sisters.

There were plans to put the pictures in books so who knows who else might see that picture of her because she put it back in her box with the rest of the photos to be preserved.

Ravenwarbird

“my grandpa is looking to be put into a long-term care center. We do not expect him to live to see 2010.”

Update, my Grandfather passed away at 11:30pm (ish) May 6th 2009. We were all glad to see him go, for the last three months he has been stuck in a hospital bed in constant pain and confusion. Could still whip your butt a cribbage thought. He was ready and willing and I am sure happy to go. My only regret is I had not seen him in nearly a year. I have never liked going to nursing homes, to many bad memories of my Grandmother. She had Huntington’s and was bed ridden for 40 years. I am greatly saddened that I never knew HER, only what was left. They are together now and pain free, that thought brings me great joy, it really does.

One year from now my mother will be sealed to her parents and they to each other and I will get to be a proxy in that. Baptism most likely.

ddoger

RWB: My heart goes out to you. I know death is often the best solution for everyone but I still know the emptiness that is left when a loved one goes home. I hope the Love of the Saviour fills the pains of sadness and mourning of all involved. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Sincerely

Ddoger

The rule is… Live the Principle. If you choose not to live this rule, more rules will be created. MP

Noodles

RWB… My condolences as well; it sounds like you were indeed close to him, and that he has a place in your heart. I hope you find solace in the Gospel, and have a knowledge of the life that exists thereafter. If you ever care to discuss this, pls send me a private e-mail. Take care.

argonaut

RWB, As you mentioned, he was “happy to go”. I am happy for him, and I am happy that you are experiencing joy in the fact that he is reunited with his sweetie. Grief at the death of others is often selfish. I lost a beloved 21 year old sister when I was 12. I missed her horribly. I prayed every night that she would be allowed to come back and visit me. My grief was not resolved until I realized that I should be happy with her progress, rather than be sad for my loss. I have come close to death so many times that I have a “bring it on” type attitude. I will fully embrace it, and I don’t want a single tear shed over it. Be happy. It is good.

Usher

My Dad was in a hospice facility when he died–7 years ago.

I asked if he was scared of dying. He said “No, I’m actually looking forward to it to see if that stuff I’ve been preaching as a Bishop is really true!”

Dad had a great sense of humor, right up to the end.

Usher

Noodles

Arg… I share your sentiments towards passing on. I actually look fwd to it, at the appropriate time, and the only thing I ask is to have a notepad with me so that I can take notes of each and every passing moment (pun intended). As I told one of my children after we had just been involved in a near fatal accident, grateful for the experience – just don’t want to ever repeat it!! Likewise with passing on… Just wouldn’t want to repeat it.

CatholicGuy

Ravenwarbird

“my grandpa is looking to be put into a long-term care center. We do not expect him to live to see 2010.”

Update, my Grandfather passed away at 11:30pm (ish) May 6th 2009. We were all glad to see him go, for the last three months he has been stuck in a hospital bed in constant pain and confusion. Could still whip your butt a cribbage thought. He was ready and willing and I am sure happy to go. My only regret is I had not seen him in nearly a year. I have never liked going to nursing homes, to many bad memories of my Grandmother. She had Huntington’s and was bed ridden for 40 years. I am greatly saddened that I never knew HER, only what was left. They are together now and pain free, that thought brings me great joy, it really does.

One year from now my mother will be sealed to her parents and they to each other and I will get to be a proxy in that. Baptism most likely.

I’d like to add my condolences to everyone else’s.

Reading what you said, I’m reminded a little of when my grandmother died in 2006. We all knew that she didn’t have long to live, but nevertheless when she died it did seem a little sudden.

Ravenwarbird

We all expected him to go soon just not that soon. Even the doctor who looked him over that day said he expected a year or two more out of my grandfather but I am glad he did not have to go through a year of that life. He was in remarkable condition for a 95 year old and only lived in a lodge for four years caring for himself. He golfed, curled, and played cards whenever he could. It was only the last three months that like got hard. I think that might have been a blessing for all of us the family. He and his children all had to watch helpless as my grandmother slowly died over 40 years in a nursing home. For him his time came and he was ready and willing.

Thank you to you all And sorry for hijacking the thread.

CatholicGuy

Ravenwarbird

He and his children all had to watch helpless as my grandmother slowly died over 40 years in a nursing home.

Wow. 😦

What did she die from?

wantfirsttime

CatholicGuy

Ravenwarbird

“my grandpa is looking to be put into a long-term care center. We do not expect him to live to see 2010.”

Reading what you said, I’m reminded a little of when my grandmother died in 2006. We all knew that she didn’t have long to live, but nevertheless when she died it did seem a little sudden.

i agree but if they were living on their own and had very little to no health problem it is a whole lot harder to taken in

joserab

Somewhat belatedly…I’m sorry for your loss, RWB.

joserab

Ravenwarbird

CatholicGuy

Ravenwarbird

He and his children all had to watch helpless as my grandmother slowly died over 40 years in a nursing home.

Wow. 😦

What did she die from?

Huntington’s disease, it is 50% hereditary. Out of four children my mother is the only one who does not have it and she is the only member of the Church in her family (other than her kids and my Dad and his family).

Noodles

Ummmm… Seems to be a correlary there…

hairybare

Huntington’s is one nasty customer, I am sorry for your loss and sorry for the loaded gun in the family. My father was adopted and we have no medical history at all, but so far all seems to be fine.

Hairybare

Hopkington Kalazan

Religion is a fortune, that frees us to accept death “not, like the quarry-slave at night, scourged to his dungeon, but sustained and soothed by an unfaltering trust” (as William Cullen Bryant put it). I am grateful for the faith you show, RWB.

Ravenwarbird

My Grandfather was not LDS nor could my mother say what he was if anything as they did not go to church ever that she can recall as a child. There was a United minister who conducted his funeral, he had started attending her Church a few year back with a friend who was a member of that Church and no one in the family knew. I was glad to know that at least she knew him, I have been to a few funerals where the minister did not know the person but talked like they did.

I had a third cousin or something who died and she was the only other member of the Church on my mothers side. Her kids had her funeral at a Catholic Church officiated by a Catholic minister. He talked about her and the way she was like he had met her and knew her but he never did and he kept calling her by the wrong name the entire time.

Anyway, I found the funeral somewhat odd. For one thing the minister started the opening prayer with “Holy Mystery,” I have never heard that before, and she went on and talked about her day and how nice a day it was all the while I am wondering what is her point and what does this have to do with this funeral. I still don’t know. It was like she said “I had a great day and here are some scriptures on death.” She also waved her arms a lot, I had to stifle giggles from my niece and nephew several times.

There is a big difference between an LDS funeral and any other. I felt nothing at my grandfathers funeral, at all. I had dealt with his death when I first learned about it and know he is a lot happier and better off. I look forward to seeing him again, I was not saying bye, I said see you later.

argonaut

Recently my wife provided music at a funeral for a grandchild of a friend. The child’s mother is an inactive member. The father is a member of another faith. The service was held in the father’s church. My wife said the Priest’s address was appalling. The father was so angry, he actually walked out of the service. That’s right, he walked out of his son’s funeral because the Priest’s message was so screwed up. Some people are just idiots, regardless of their religion, but I do agree with RWB that LDS funeral services are comparatively joyous and positive.

Noodles

“I was not saying bye, I said see you later.” that’s almost poetic, RWB. My mother has been invited on numerous occasions to sing “Oh My Father” at funerals – both LDS and non-LDS. And yes, there is a difference in LDS funerals from all the rest, pretty much. How blessed we are, to have the various understandings that we as a people have.

wantfirsttime

when my grandmother who was lds passed away. my mom is lds and her sister is not and they are the only ones in that family but at the funeral both my mom’s bishop and my aunt’s poster condieted the service so it was a little of both types i have also been to a funeral where the person that passed away was cremated (ashes in a box) that was weird

joserab

We did a combination LDS – Methodist funeral for my mother. Before I was able to lock her pastor down for the service, my Methodist sister-in-law was freaking out. She would ask, “What will we do if he doesn’t make it?” My response was, “I’ll lead it and we’ll do it ourselves.” My sister-in-law didn’t understand that and just freaked out even more. My brother (removed his name from church records) just looked at me knowingly and cracked a small smile.

After the service, I stopped by at the Reverend’s office. It was a few day’s later. We had a good laugh about it all. He had told a number of his fellow ministers about working a combo LDS-Methodist funeral. They were shocked and wondered how it went. Now that I think about it, they are probably among those that think we don’t believe in Jesus Christ (it’s in the name of the church, for goodness sake!). The reverend was very positive about it. We enjoyed each other’s company for awhile, but haven’t seen each other since. Would I do it again? Yep!

joserab

Hopkington Kalazan

I was once at a memorial service conducted jointly by the Church and the State Department. The deceased were a diplomat and his daughter, killed in an auto accident. His wife was very serene, but at least one co-worker sobbed from start to finish. Night and day.

(The relations of Church and State have seldom been so harmonious, though there were probably misgivings on both sides. Not unlike the LDS/Methodist one!)

bryans_saturdays

wow, we are a long ways from family showers! 😉

Ravenwarbird

Yeah…, free to move or clean up or what ever you wish to my tangent. I really did not mean to hijack and then derail this thread like that. I am good with what ever you choose to do. Peace shall rain upon this world (at some point) and when it does my all of you feel the joy it brings.

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day.

FullMonty

My kids are way too old and too big to join us for family showers, however a couple Sundays ago my oldest teenage son wanted to wear one of my ties. Our shower is a great size for two people surrounded by clear glass and our kids know that we always shower together. He started to walk in then hesitates, when my wife says, it’s okay, come on in. He holds up a couple ties to have us help choose the color, talks for a bit and leaves. No big deal. That’s as close as we’ll ever come to family showers but it’s nice to have that much openness in our house.

Ravenwarbird

In an attempt to do my part and atone for past deviations of this thread I will post this here.

Last Saturday night being last night, my brother got to baby sit again, I had to work. I need to talk that older brother in to making his dates on days I don’t work.

This is what was told me directly form one who was there, my brother, the one who went to baby sit not the one who needed a sitter. When he got there the oldest girl was practicing the piano with her youngest sister on a baby bouncer in the living room. The two middle children were upstairs with their mother who was running a bath for them. My sister-in-law had given the baby a bath and was going to start bathing the next youngest as they all get baths Saturday night for Church the next day. When my brother arrived he took over bathing the kids while their mother got ready to leave.

The oldest of the kids was given instructions to keep practicing the piano and keep an eye on the baby while my brother was giving bathes and when he call she was to take her bath without any complaints or trouble . She was old enough to bath her self. The arrangement suited everyone well it seemed and everything went as planed.

The interesting thing was then kids in he bath were nearly done my brother called down to the oldest that she could come up and start getting ready and to bring the baby as he did not want to leave her alone for lone as he still had to get the kids dry and dressed and the baby would not stay happy lone if left alone. She came straight up, put the baby on he floor and undressed in the bathroom to her underwear while my brother finished up with the kids. As soon as he got the second kid out to dry them, the oldest finished getting undressed and hopped in the tub and asked for more hot water. The rest of the night was pretty quiet after getting the boy in his PJ’s, the older girl know the drill and dresser herself. He told one story to the, well I guess three youngest but the oldest would not let him off without a story for her as she was in the tub for the first story. I think I said it before he tells good stories.

I was envious of his good fortune in being able to watch our brothers kids so pried every detail of the night out of him. What made me most happy was to hear that all the kids, but especially the oldest, where so comfortable with being naked around each other and another family member, namely my brother.

Oh, I guess you might what some ages for the kids. From oldest to youngest, 11F,8F,6M and under 1F.

I look forward to when it will be my turn to watch them. It is always fun.

wantfirsttime

wonderful post raven you are lucky to have a family that is that open. i wish when i was growing up my family was little more open like that.

bryans_saturdays

We just got back from a Memorial day trip… didn’t go far, just a cute little town about 2 hours away. The kids always enjoy staying in a hotel, and swimming in the pool is always a highlight. Last night when the four of us (me, wife, daughter 10, son 8) got back from swimming we turned the shower on and kept it running while all four of us took turns rinsing off. While one was in the shower, the other three were microwaving popcorn, finding something to watch on TV, lounging on the bed, etc. There was a good hour at least when nobody was wearing any clothes, and none of us were in any hurry to get dressed.

In 30 years from now if any of us remember this weekend, this is one aspect of it that will stand our for me.

Bryan

wantfirsttime

oh bryans that was so cool i wish that would happen with me

argonaut

wantfirsttime

i wish that would happen with me

Thing is, wantfirst, that if you rely on wishes its not likely to happen. Take the family to Diamond Fork for a picnic and soak. Start a discussion about the importance of family and being comfortable and secure together. Talk about what motivates the naked people in the springs and express appreciation for their attitudes. Discuss other cultures more comfortable with nudity, and how the attitudes we have toward the body are influenced by our culture — stuff like that.

Maybe they won’t want to remove their suits on the first trip. No big deal. Keep working on it carefully and your chances of success go way up – or not, depending on your wife…

bryans_saturdays

WantFirstTime, if you have already shared this with us, please forgive me. Do you have kids? If so, what are their ages? Your profile says you are 31 so they couldn’t be too old Have you discussed your hopes with your wife?

This open-door attitude in our home did just not just happen. It is the result of open and honest communication between my wife and I early in our marriage.

Mr Moonella

argonaut

wantfirsttime

i wish that would happen with me

Thing is, wantfirst, that if you rely on wishes its not likely to happen. Take the family to Diamond Fork for a picnic and soak. Start a discussion about the importance of family and being comfortable and secure together. Talk about what motivates the naked people in the springs and express appreciation for their attitudes.

Speaking as the British chap, I found this advice rather startling. It makes me feel like I live on a different planet. Perhaps America is far more accepting of nudity than I had been led to believe.

I know that my wife (and I would have thought the same will be true of many Mormons) wouldn’t go near the springs if she knew there would be naked people around. And if she didn’t know until she got there she would turn round immediately and get out of there. She wouldn’t just sit there contemplating the scene. And if she then found out that I had known there would be naked people and had taken her there anyway, I would be in SERIOUS trouble.

Therefore, I would consider it the worst way to start a discussion about openness at home.

bryans_saturdays

Mr Moonella

Speaking as the British chap, I found this advice rather startling. It makes me feel like I live on a different planet. Perhaps America is far more accepting of nudity than I had been led to believe.

I can’t speak for all of America, but up at Diamond Fork’s Hot Springs, nudity is pretty common. It still gets giggles, stares, and sometimes some looks of disdain, but the local non-nudists still flock to the place even with the knowledge that there could be naked people there.

Mr Moonella

bryans_saturdays

Mr Moonella

Speaking as the British chap, I found this advice rather startling. It makes me feel like I live on a different planet. Perhaps America is far more accepting of nudity than I had been led to believe.

I can’t speak for all of America, but up at Diamond Fork’s Hot Springs, nudity is pretty common. It still gets giggles, stares, and sometimes some looks of disdain, but the local non-nudists still flock to the place even with the knowledge that there could be naked people there.

Well, that blew my mind. I couldn’t get my head around it. We don’t have places like that – nudists go to nudist beaches/clubs/events, they don’t go naked alongside people who look at them with disdain. It would not be tolerated.

On this forum we’re always talking about how people think nudity is so immoral. They’d switch off their TV if it came on. They think parents who let their kids see them naked are sinful. And yet they go to places where there are naked people! Why?

Now I recognise that church members think bikinis are immodest and they don’t leave a beach just because people are wearing skimpy bikinis. But that’s because skimpy bikinis are worn on any beach and are accepted by society at large, so you either put up with it or never go to a beach. But Brits wouldn’t extend that level of tolerance to nudity. Yet it sounds like America does, in certain places.

So as a Brit trying to understand American culture, could you explain:

Are hot springs kind of like beaches if you live a thousand miles from the actual coast (in Britain you’re never more than 72 miles from the sea)? What I mean is, are they so much a part of your culture that avoiding hot springs altogether would be weird?

Is nudity tolerated at all hot springs?

If not, why would anti-nudist people go to one that does?

If it is, then America seems very tolerant towards nudity. This level of tolerance is what I would expect in a German park. Yet we’re always talking about how anti-nudity America is. How do I reconcile that?

argonaut

Moonella,

Here is my take on it. While freehiking, I have been seen by many textiles. They typically do not freak out, get mad, make threats or ridicule. 99% smile, offer or return a greeting and continue on. Some even stop to chat. They don’t avoid the woods because of the possibility of seeing some old nude guys out for a hike.

Very few people go to hot springs. There are commercial or publicly operated springs which are mostly textile. The more remote springs are often clothing optional and people expect to find nudity. In my opinion, there are millions of people who have been naked at hot springs, lakes or beaches who would never consider themselves to be nudists. I don’t think skinny-dipping is seen as being something immoral, although it is expected and accepted more from young people than old geezers like me.

Often when a textile group encounters nudity, there will be someone in the group that will calm the anxiety of the others. I have seen that in groups I have encountered freehiking. One guy will want to pull the experience card and will say “oh yeah, I have come across nude hikers lots of times”.

That makes it better for the others.

Also, I think that those who frequent forests, beaches, springs, etc tend to be more accepting than those who rarely escape the confines of the city.

My opinions and experiences are probably colored by the fact that I am in Seattle, which is quite tolerant of nudity compared to most US cities. The Fremont Solstice Parade is a good example. How many cities allow full nudity in their parades, with police protection ?

As far as “anti-nudists” go, there were 6 organized and permitted (the permit applies to the ride, not the nudity) naked bike rides in Seattle last year, and I know only of one protester who carried a sign on the route condemning the riders to hell. Only 5 or 6 citizens registered complaints, but tens of thousands who saw the riders did not register complaints, and each year the number of participants increases.

Mr Moonella

argonaut

Moonella,

Here is my take on it. While freehiking, I have been seen by many textiles. They typically do not freak out, get mad, make threats or ridicule. 99% smile, offer or return a greeting and continue on. Some even stop to chat. They don’t avoid the woods because of the possibility of seeing some old nude guys out for a hike.

Very few people go to hot springs. There are commercial or publicly operated springs which are mostly textile. The more remote springs are often clothing optional and people expect to find nudity. In my opinion, there are millions of people who have been naked at hot springs, lakes or beaches who would never consider themselves to be nudists. I don’t think skinny-dipping is seen as being something immoral, although it is expected and accepted more from young people than old geezers like me.

Often when a textile group encounters nudity, there will be someone in the group that will calm the anxiety of the others. I have seen that in groups I have encountered freehiking. One guy will want to pull the experience card and will say “oh yeah, I have come across nude hikers lots of times”.

That makes it better for the others.

Also, I think that those who frequent forests, beaches, springs, etc tend to be more accepting than those who rarely escape the confines of the city.

My opinions and experiences are probably colored by the fact that I am in Seattle, which is quite tolerant of nudity. The Fremont Solstice Parade is a good example. How many cities allow full nudity in their parades, with police protection ?

OK, we do have the occasional Nude bike ride in London. And I know that a lot of people are tolerant of nudity, or have a giggle at it but consider it harmless. But I’m talking about Mormons, and the people that Bryan said would look at the nudists with disdain. Mormons I know wouldn’t go to a place where they are likely to see nude people. I’m sure they would consider it immoral to do so.

I also don’t think people here would expect to see nude people at the beach or in the woods. They expect it at nudist beaches. Therefore mixing with nudists doesn’t happen here – you’d have to go to an area known for being nudist, and why would you?

That’s why I couldn’t relate to your advice about taking one’s wife to the hot springs. In this country there’s no equivalent place.

argonaut

I would hope that anyone hiking into Diamond Fork would have made the decision to continue only after considering the signage related to nude use at the trailhead (asking nudists to be considerate of the textiles). There is a similar sign at the trailhead to Olympic hot springs in Washington. One can choose to stop or continue, based on ones personal belief about viewing nudity. I think most people, Mormons included, say “what the heck, we have come this far already, lets go on up”.

I have seen a textile youth group from a church at Olympic. I don’t know if the leaders read the sign, but they didn’t scream and call the cops when the 20 or so kids spotted me relaxing naked in a pool. They picked the second to last spring on the trail, so on that day they saw several nude females and fewer males (I wrote about it in another thread). They didn’t run away in terror, but they didn’t shed their bathing suits either. Granted they were not LDS, but I think it is understood even in Utah, that if you hike in to a hot spring, you have a good chance of encountering nudity.

I would guess that most of the people who use Diamond Fork, naked or not, are LDS. Like you, Moonella, I know Mormons who I think would not be tolerant of nudity and who may become quite upset at seeing a nude person of the opposite sex, but I also know many who would not care, and a few who would join in.

I also think there are many (Mormons included) who would register disapproval and disgust at seeing nudity when in the company of other people, but if alone would be rather fascinated by it – and may even try it out.

Even people who have had many nude experiences themselves often react negatively when other people are nude, or if it is socially expedient to react negatively.

Human nature dictates: What I do is okay, but what other people do, if it is anything different than what I do, is wrong, at least until I do it.

bryans_saturdays

In the case of Diamond Fork, only recently has it evolved into a popular hangout spot for everyone. When I was going to school at BYU few people knew about it, and everyone who did knew that it was clothing optional and nobody went unless you were willing to either be naked or see nudity. I think that this reputation lingers. Last time I was there I was one of 5 or so naked people vs. maybe 2 dozen people with suits. Nobody cared, and I soaked naked next to two female BYU students and we chatted for a long while.

The types of Mormons who would be disgusted by nudity, I suspect, simply don’t go.

wantfirsttime

bryans_saturdays

WantFirstTime, if you have already shared this with us, please forgive me. Do you have kids? If so, what are their ages? Your profile says you are 31 so they couldn’t be too old Have you discussed your hopes with your wife?

This open-door attitude in our home did just not just happen. It is the result of open and honest communication between my wife and I early in our marriage.

i did not realize that my profile was that old cause I’m 33 (34 in november) has for my kids i have 3 two step sons and a daughter at the end of the summer they will be 15,12,8 my wife and i have been married for nine years and i have talked to my wife about it but she is like most LDS members and anything like recreational nudity is wrong i’ve told her many times since we got married and before i found this web site that i would like to go skinny dipping with her some time but a good opportunity has not happen yet. i know that there is some times that she isn’t all the way dress that she feels ok to be around our boys if she has her pants off but have garment bottoms on she is okay with that if our boys need to use the bathroom when she is taking a shower she permits it has long as they don’t look around the curtain. my kids are fine walking around nude in found of everybody in our family (i.e. the 5 of us) and i try to make comments that i hope someday start a dusscion about nudity it would help a lot if we made friends with someone who is active in the church that we didn’t know until later that they enjoyed recreational nudity

Noodles

Wants… Seems like w/ older kids running around the house sans clothing, you’d be almost “there”!! Seems like a casual conversation on the subject would have already come up at the dinner table or something akin to that. I’m baffled as to why you all can’t talk abt it, and why your wife isn’t more involved. Having a 5-6 yr old accustomed to nudity and continuing with that for 9 yrs (I assume that your comments abt your 3 being comfortable nude around each other AND mom is fairly current?) indicates to me a tolerant attitude on the part of their mother. So, just curious, what gives?

Guess I need to move up there anonymously and befriend you and your family… probably help though to have a family of my own, too, huh?!! Well, I’m working on that one!!

In any case, I’d consider myself extremely fortunate if I were in your situation. You’re closer to a happy resolution than perhaps you realize. (Of course, I’m reading a lot in there between the lines.) Good luck to you!!

Just my 2½¢ worth…

ddoger

Wantfirsttime said: i have talked to my wife about it but she is like most LDS members and anything like recreational nudity is wrong i’ve told her many times since we got married and before i found this web site that i would like to go skinny dipping with her some time but a good opportunity has not happen yet.

Ddoger says: Create the opportunity. Find a quiet, private, out of the way place and take her there. Try freehiking, hotspringing, Nude beaches, Skinny dipping, clothes free days at home, Back yard suntanning, Cuddling, Etc… Don’t wait for an opportunity, create one. It has cost me thousands of Dollars but this is what I have done. Beaches in the Bahamas, St. Maartens, and Antigua. Freehiking at home, Clothes freedays at home. Yesterday we spent an hour suntanning and then went on a freehike for 2 hours. What a joy. She is as conservative as can be. Typical Mormon Girl. but for some strange reason, she loves me and is willing to go along to some degree. It has been a long process and I have have a ways to go yet but it is worth it. But I had to start somewhere.

FWiW

Ddoger

The rule is… Live the Principle. If you choose not to live this rule, more rules will be created. MP

Calguy

I was speaking with a co-worker today, Jose, about his father/son camping trip this past weekend. In the course of the conversation he mentioned that his 7 year son frequently mentioned prior, and during the camping trip, about going skinny dipping, which the boy was not allowed to do on this trip. I of course took this opportunity to advocate in behalf of his son that he be given the opportunity on a future camping trip. This led Jose to mention that his wife got after him when he returned from this trip because he and his son took showers together while camping. Jose of course does not think he did anything wrong, however; his wife has been all over him to stop showering with his son when they are camping. Jose mentioned that he and his 9 siblings were raised in small 3 bedroom house that only had one bathroom. Jose stated he saw his parents and siblings naked all the time because no one in the family was ever able to use the bathroom by themselves. Jose and I had a great conversation about chaste family nudity and it was refreshing to know that Jose and I share the same outlook on the subject. It is also interesting that we both have wives who disagree with us on the subject.

Sunburn

Wants… Here’s an alternative to ddoger’s spendy trip to a foreign destination–

(-Warning, I’m about to divulge one of “our” best-kept secrets. I hope the DW doesn’t see this post.-)

There is a hot spring resort between Buhl and Hagerman Idaho that features 19 private “baths” – each with its own cabana for changing. Each bath features high walls for privacy from every direction (except for a small “peeky” hole overlooking an area closed to public access). Each bath is open to the sky, so there is never that ‘steam-room’ effect. Unlike most resorts, the bath temperatures are controlled by you, the bather. Even though my wife lived for a year in Hawaii, she refers to this resort as the “most romantic place on earth”. (I’ll second that!) The name of this resort is Miracle Hot Springs. [More info can be found on the web.] In addition to the private baths there are two pools which are open to everyone for soaking and splashing. This is NOT a textile optional resort, but given the privacy of the 19 “baths”, there really isn’t any need for textiles in any of the private baths. Incidentally, the resort was previously owned by an LDS family. Until a couple of years ago, it wasn’t uncommon to see copies of the Book of Mormon for sale at the check in counter. To this day, the resort is closed on Sundays.

Besides Miracle, there are a couple of nearby hot springs resorts within a 5 mile drive… Sliger’s Thousand Springs Resort and Banbury Hot Springs Resort. Each of those two resorts offer private baths in addition to their large outdoor swimming pools. The drawback of these latter two is that their private baths are fully enclosed and therefore not as appealing to “outdoor gals” like my Sweetheart.

My fellow commenter, ddoger is right —- it is up to you to create the right atmosphere and ambiance for your wife to WANT to get n. with you.

All I can say is the naturally soft and odor-free hot waters of the Hagerman Valley in SouthCentral Idaho really does the trick for my sweet bride!

Good Luck

ddoger

you have to understand… Idaho is in a foreign country to me.

The rule is… Live the Principle. If you choose not to live this rule, more rules will be created. MP

argonaut

ddoger

Idaho is in a foreign country to me.

me too.

Ravenwarbird

To night I went to the Temple to do baptisms with my Ward and as always afterward we went to Dairy Queen (is that a Mormon thing or just a local tradition? Where do you go after attending the Temple?). I am not a fan of Dairy Queen especially after a Temple trip, way to many people and way to chaotic. So when a Brother said that he was leaving now to get home early I latched on and caught a ride home with him and another Sister. We live not far but far enough from a Temple so that is requires car pooling and you have enough time during the ride to get to know someone better by covering a few topics in conversation.

We started talking about siblings and how we and they are treated by parents and each other. He is a middle child and she is the eldest while I am the youngest of our respective broods. We shared stories and what not to tell how our parents had treated out in relation to our position in our families. He told us of last Victoria Day (May long weekend) when he want home to his parents place for the weekend. His parents had put in a pool last year so they spent most of the time in the pool playing and staying cool. That weekend was beautiful, warm sunny and mild wind, perfect weather for a long weekend. Friday evening, the fist day of the weekend, he was out in the pool swimming and playing around with his parents (age unknown) and youngest sister (7), his older siblings are all married and scattered to the four winds and he said his younger sister (13) was our with friends, when his mother tells his youngest sister to go shower and get ready for bed. So straight way she get out of the pool, takes off her swim suit, hangs in all some railing and runs inside to shower. He is shock, both at his sisters streeking but more at the fact that neither of his parents said or reacted at all to it.

He said he could never have gotten away with that sort of thing when he was her age. He found out that her running around naked was not uncommon nor was it uncommon for his other sister still living at home to go around the house in the mornings and evenings in nothing but her underwear. That blew his mind he said. He as a awe at how much his parents had changed and mellowed, he could not understand how they could have changed that much and how come they had not mellowed sooner like when he was younger?

He asked his mother about is and she said that truthfully they had just got tired and worn out and since they had moved from the city, where he grew up, to the country, it just was not that big an issue. As all little kids so the youngest had run around naked since she could run and would do so if given the chance. His parents had just given up trying to chase her down and force cloths on her. They had six kids and just did not have the energy to keep up like they use to. That might explain me a little, my parents just could not keep up so I got away with things the others could not. That seemed to me the tread we came to a conclusion on. The younger ones get away with more stuff than the older ones and parents seem to stop caring as much about things as they did with the first and so on. Kids are…KIDS! They lack knowledge and experience but have loads of energy and interest and more time than they know what to do with, a fearful combination (for a parent) but they are resilient and will bounce back for near anything. I think parents learn that with the first one that some things they do not have to worry about and other things they do. The first kid is the experimental one, the Ginny-pig, the one you learn about being a parent on. The rest have the benefit of an experienced parent. The more kids before you in line the more experienced you parents are for when you come alone and mess up their system by being nothing like the rest.

Oh yeah, there was one what I thought was an awesome part of this Brothers weekend. Sunday morning his mother sent him to check on his sisters progress for getting ready for Church. He went to their room, knocked and was told to come in. What he saw was the older sister doing her younger sisters hair but the younger was naked and the older was topless. He said he never wanted to see his sisters breasts, if they were naked why did they say come in? I laughed at him and called him a prude. I told him that there was nothing wrong with what he saw, if anything it was good, the other Sister said that she would never do that for her sister mostly because her sister would not let her near her hair, also that if his sisters did not care about being seen neither should he about seeing them.

argonaut

Ravenwarbird

They had six kids and just did not have the energy to keep up like they use to.

True. We went through six as well and it does take a lot out of you. Also, as you noted, one begins to understand what is important and what is not so much.

We also found it very helpful that our first child, a son, was (and is) the nicest person on the planet. I believe he truly is a man without guile. This really set the tone for the other 5. He was also very tolerant of our parenting mistakes, which were numerous.

rjmma

Kids are like pancakes the first ones never turn out just right. is a saying I’ve heard alot.

It’s not that the batter is bad or the griddle isn’t the right temperature, but the cook is typically too anxious. Sometimes the last bunch of pancakes gets neglected for too long because the cooks tired of cooking.

I’ve tried to equally ruin all of my pancakes. but I know I was too controlling of the 1st, and probably too lax on the last.

wantfirsttime

rjmma

Kids are like pancakes the first ones never turn out just right. is a saying I’ve heard alot.

that reminds me of a saying that i like “women (or men) are like parking spaces the good ones are taken and the rest are handicapped”

Ravenwarbird

Tonight I talked with a young lady who told me she was the oldest of 12 kids, no twins or triplets in the lot either, five boys and seven girls. I talked with her away from the group we were in and asked her about how much privacy she got with 11 siblings. She said there is pretty much no privacy around her house or her parents house really. Everyone shares a room with at least one other person usually two and having a bath all you oneself is unheard of. She said that probably not a day want by that she did not see at least one sibling naked for one reason or another. The bathroom doors are never locked; house rule, she did not know if they even can be. She is 22 and her youngest sibling is 2. I can not even imagine having 11 siblings but I can totally see how privacy would be an issue and can not see how a parent could manage with a prudish mindset. Nudity around the house would have to be a must as I don’t see how it could be avoided. Definitely an interesting home life and a scheduling nightmare.

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day. Si prima non succederet usus duct tape.

Noodles

RWB… Was your acquaintance with this young lady happenstance, or do you (or will you) see her again? I’d be curious to know how she feels about the bonding in her family. Is her family close knit in a spiritual sense, not just a physical sense? (I know that in any family situation, there’s bound to be contentions arise from time to time – it’s part of the growing process. But when push comes to shove, or “outsider’s” confront one of their family members, does the rest of the family unit in defending the one? In other words, is her family a “Walton like” family?)

Just my 2½¢ worth…

mormondad

As #2 of 9 and having never had a private bedroom until I got into college I think I can empathize some with this young lady. However I did grow up in a more closed door family. While in my family it was’t aggressively enforced nudity was really frowned upon and discouraged. As older kids you couldn’t even run around in your underwear. I hypothesize that this young ladies family is much closer and has a much better relationship than does my family. My years growing up was rather closed door and I can attest, at least from my experience, that those doors continue to be metaphorically closed in much of my family.

Bodily decay is gloomy in prospect, but of all human contemplations the most abhorrent is body without mind.

Thomas Jefferson

Ravenwarbird

In response to Noodles, yes my meeting her was rather happenstance. It was at a BBQ hosted at a friends house so she was a friend of a friend of a friend as were many people there. I found it kind of funny as I asked several people how they knew the host and most said this was the first time they ever met him and were invited by one very social girl.

Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day. Si prima non succederet usus duct tape.

Noodles

One of my beliefs – based somewhat upon limited observation of others – is the bonding that seemingly exists within “open door” families. How I wish I had been more familiar with this lifestyle from the early stages of my 1st marriage!! And how I WISH with all my heart that I could witness the adaption of this lifestyle within my children’s families. Especially when considering the onslaught of today’s pernicious society’s ills – pornography, and other such ilk. I know the standards of the Church, when adhered to “religiously” will ward off the tempter’s snare(s), but it’s akin to a damn – holding back the mounting and building pressures of God induced tendencies and curiosities. Constantly having to “rebuild” the damn to fortify it against more & more pressure. To the point that when the damn is finally opened up (the honeymoon) – instead of gradually opening up the gates in a controlled way, it is more like dynamited and then all sorts of new problems confront the newly wed. Whereas, if the flow was never damned up to begin with, casual curiosities met with appeasing satisfaction, then (I truly believe) most of the temptations wouldn’t even exist in the 1st place. Anyway… So much for the diatribe!

Just my 2½¢ worth…

mormondad

Noodles, I agree that ridged adherence to purported guidelines do add significant stress on people. I know having grown up in a fairly rigid LDS environment that there was a lot of pressure and I believe it lead to some issues that caused me some grief and unnecessary stress. While I wasn’t so much in my own right a problem and I suspect other things played into that beyond myself to help me keep from serious sin and anguish, but I have witnessed many others including several family members who succumbed to the sin and problems that a closed family and rigid religious environment fostered.

You are so right in how when the “dam” finally breaks during the honeymoon. A book was written directly dealing with this issue “And they were not Ashamed” by Laura Brotherson.

Personally I’ve come to believe (from my personal experiences and observations) that an open home and family breeds a more open and close family. However Satan and the world would have us build up the barriers and close the doors to personal interaction. Thus we are taught we have a right to personal rooms, keep the doors closed and don’t let anyone in at all.

Bodily decay is gloomy in prospect, but of all human contemplations the most abhorrent is body without mind.

Thomas Jefferson

Noodles

Laura Brotherson’s book “And they were not Ashamed” is an excellent book – one of the best I’ve read (although I don’t agree with everything she said; good book, nevertheless).

Just my 2½¢ worth…

mormondad

Yes, but if more young people would read it and then discuss it when dating the world would be much better and we’d see a lot fewer marital problems.

Bodily decay is gloomy in prospect, but of all human contemplations the most abhorrent is body without mind.

Thomas Jefferson

Buniya Pure

quote:

Originally posted by mormondad

Satan and the world would have us build up the barriers and close the doors to personal interaction. Thus we are taught we have a right to personal rooms, keep the doors closed and don’t let anyone in at all.

This strikes close to home for me. Not just literally, but also figuratively far as friendships/relationships go. I’m trying to change this, but the process isn’t easy.

Usher

Noodles

Laura Brotherson’s book “And they were not Ashamed” is an excellent book – one of the best I’ve read (although I don’t agree with everything she said; good book, nevertheless).

I bought this book but my DW treats it like it is the Word Of Satan.

She won’t even look at the table of contents. I tried to tell her that I purchased it as Deseret Book, but that didn’t help.

SouthernMan

As far as the Brotherson book, DW and I read it when it first came out as bedtime faire. One chapter a night as long as it lasted. Took turns reading out loud. Lead to some memorable discussions, both verbal and non-verbal. Yes, Deseret Book. I recommend it. It might be time for me to pull it out again for a second turn through…

Noodles

Usher… My heart goes out to you! I dealt with the same ordeal with my first wife (took years and years for us to simply get her parents out of our bedroom – figuratively, that is. On second thought…). I’m sure there’s going to many a stalwart LDS member who will be aghast when they find out some of the things they “religiously” adhered to in this life is found to be nonsensical in the worlds to come. Why, oh why, can’t we view things with an open mind, listen to the Spirit, and find direction & understanding in His precepts?!! Line upon line, precept upon precept – here a little, there a little. Oh, NO you don’t! Nope! That’s NOT the way it is!!! (Some people will no doubt go to hell because they won’t accept something contrary to their core belief! Even if it comes from God Himself!)

Just my 2½¢ worth…

 

Nudism for Healing – scraped from the wayback machine – archive of LDSSDF

All Forums | Family & Friend Relationships | Family, Friend, Ward Member & Co-Workers Reactions | Nudism for Healing

johnw

President Hinckley has spent a lot of energy warning about pornography, calling it worse than the plague. The topic comes up all the time in Stake leadership meetings too. I have heard statistics of the volume of pornography that flows through the BYU network every day. It is a huge, sick problem.

Still, from my limited experience, pornography is not the problem. In fact, it is a symptom of a much deeper problem. In my opinion, when we put porn blockers and filters on our Internet connections, we’re hacking at the branches of evil, but not striking at the root.

My view is that we have created our own cancer. By “we” I don’t refer specifically to the church or to the US, but just generally to the Christian culture in the US, which tends to be somewhat amplified in the church.

What is the cancer? The cancer is mutated views of bodies and sexuality. This has come about from two fronts.

On one side, we have always been a very “Victorian” society. Surprisingly, in some ways this is growing instead of softening. We have been able to become more and more private about our bodies in these big, modern homes with private rooms and baths. Contrast this with the homes our grandparents grew up in, with one common room for all of the kids and a wash basin on the kitchen floor for bathing; “modesty” just wasn’t an option. But now it is. Even “modesty” itself is taking on a life of its own in the church. Its definition has grown from the original sense of propriety in conduct to the narrow definition of ample clothing. As a result, we have it pounded into our heads that bodies are sexual and they have to be covered to preserve purity. The hiding of them, I believe, creates a second problem. We can easily become fixated on what we are not allowed to see.

On the other side, Hollywood is working very hard to sexualize the body. It shows idealized, air-brushed flashes of skin and charges them with sexuality. The irony is that the Christian culture is reinforcing Hollywood’s messaging. Hollywood shows soft cleavage with lights and sounds that scream “sex”, and the Christian churches jump to their feet and agree.

We’re bombarded on both fronts with the same message: bodies are sex. Hollywood tells us to get naked and indulge in sex, while Christian society tells us to cover up and spurn it. And they’re both wrong. Which brings us back to our goal of finding the root of the pornography problem.

The root of the problem, then, is that we have horribly distorted and mutated the innocent view of bodies. This becomes self-evident with a simple question: How does Heavenly Father react to your nude body? The answer, I believe, is that he does not see a nude body. He only sees you — his child — and feels love.

When Heavenly Father looks on us, he sees souls. Sadly, when many men (and a surprising number of women too, I understand) look on the opposite gender, their view is tainted by sexuality. Some are able to deal with that. But others struggle with it. To make matters worse, many have a natural, innocent curiosity about what the other gender looks like, intensified by the fact that bodies are so hidden. The obvious and easiest place to satisfy curiosity about sex and bodies is pornography. This is horribly devastating. As soon as these poor souls start looking at pornography, the sexual view of bodies is burned deeply into their minds. From this moment on, they nearly can’t visualize the other gender nude in a non-sexual way. The other gender ceases to be souls and becomes walking sex objects. Innocence is completely lost.

We make a very sad mistake when we assume that we should cure these people by filtering their Internet connection or installing a porn blocker. That may keep them from seeing porn, but there remain deeply distorted perceptions about bodies and sex.

I started re-reading The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis and loved this passage from the Prologue: “I do not think that all who choose wrong roads perish; but their rescue consists in being put back on the right road. A wrong sum can be put right: but only by going back till you find the error and working it afresh from that point, never by simply going on. Evil can be undone, but it cannot “develop” into good. Time does not heal it. The spell must be unwound, bit by bit …”

We assume that if we can get the porn addict away from the porn that they will be able to move on from it. But this is fundamentally wrong. To really help the porn addict heal, we must “unwind” the problem — go back and correct the thought patterns and perceptions that have been altered and mutated. We have to heal their minds and souls. If we can put their perceptions right, pornography will lose its appeal.

Enter the remedy and relief — nudism. Chaste nudity can be very healing. This seems counter-intuitive, but taking off your clothes in a chaste, innocent environment is a wonderful way to heal distorted body perceptions.

How does nudism heal perceptions? It takes the body — the object that has been charged with so much sexuality — and brings it back into reality. Sexually charged imagery exists in a world of false perceptions and fantasy. When you remove the body from the imagination and expose it in reality, the fantasy and fiction fly away very quickly. Even the most beautiful bodies turn out to be just a lot of pale skin, body hair, blemishes, wrinkles, and odd fat distributions. When this happens, the porn addict is left disillusioned and sexually-charged reactions disappear.

When the sexuality is swept away and just a body is left standing there, a surprising thing happens. We begin to see the person inside of the body. And then our perceptions come closer to Heavenly Father’s. The body starts to slip as the primary focal point and we begin to see a soul instead. Eventually, the body becomes the clothing of the soul, and that is a beautiful reality to arrive at.

The end result is that warped thought patterns and perceptions are healed at the root. From then on, the person views bodies in a healthy way. They are liberated from the sexual overtones that are spread all over pop culture. Victoria’s Secret models now seem ridiculous; it feels sad that they have so little respect for themselves beyond their bodies. As to pornography, it becomes clear that it is a lie, a fiction that has no root in reality.

It is hard for American Christians to come to terms with all of this. They have a profoundly strong belief that nudity must be perverse and sexually deviant. The strange truth is, it can be very innocent and wholesome. I struggle to explain this or reason it out, but anyone who has experienced it can testify to it. In a truly innocent setting, sexuality just drips away.

American Christian society also cannot understand how nudity could be modest. But it happens that taking off a swimming suit can be more modest than keeping it on. Swimming suits both emphasize and hide “private” areas and then leave your mind to fill in the blanks. Your mind will always fill in the blanks much better than reality will. Take off the swimming suit and all of a sudden it’s just a body — surprisingly less attractive than you thought, and without all of Hollywood’s music and lights, the sexual charge disappears.

If one part of the nude body is visually more emphasized than the others, it is only because we aren’t used to seeing it. Once you adjust to the sight of it, the body becomes just one continuous covering — clothing of the soul. Contrast this with current attitudes, where this body is the sum of the “private” areas. It reminds me of Ephesians where the church is described in terms of a body, where no part is superior to any other. That is the way it should be.

In regards to modesty, nudists come to realize that modesty is far more about the way you conduct and carry yourself than what you wear. I have seen girls that were incredibly immodest in the way they walked and flaunted themselves, even though their hemlines met church standards. On the other hand, a girl can carry herself with dignity and purity and no sexual overtones, even if she is unclothed.

But again, American Christians struggle to come to terms with this. Their warped perceptions of the body are, in many ways, just as severe as the porn addict’s, but towards the other end of the spectrum. In my view, these souls need as much healing as the porn addict.

So is there a place for innocent, chaste nudism among Mormons? With the plague of pornography and distorted body views spreading through the church, I do not hesitate to say that there is very much a place for this healing balm.

guido

Fantastic post. I agree with all of it. You really summed up everything I’ve been thinking about lately. It’s too bad that it’s likely that the “cure” will continue to be out of reach for most of society, including Mormonism.

bryans_saturdays

John,

You have a way of formulating ideas coherently into words and presenting them in a way that is instantly clear and precise. Thank you! I think the idea you have presented here are important enough to keep this post at the top of the section “Can Mormons be Nudists?”. I think I may even print this out and give it to a few friends who are simply unable to separate the human body from sex and pornography – with your permission, of course

Thank you taking the time to organize your thoughts, put them to paper, and share them here.

Bryan

johnw

Thanks for the kind words. Of course you can use it — that’s why I spent the time!

johnw

I am always trying to distill ideas down to the core elements. So, for whoever cares, here is my entire post reduced to three sentences:

Hollywood, pornography, and even conservative Christians all sensationalize and sexualize the body in different ways. Chaste, innocent nudity normalizes the body and restores pure body attitudes. Because chaste nudity heals body perceptions, it is a good practice and not sexual or immoral.

djw2000

Brilliant!!!

I agree with you 100%. The way I’ve viewed it is that the cumulative effect of the culture/media/pornography is to actually condition us to associate nudity with sexuality. By hiding chaste nudity behind locked doors, sexualized nudity has full sway in society so it only natural that when we see a naked body we either get horny or turn away in disgust. It’s the same way ringing a mere bell made Pavlov’s dogs salivate.

One of the biggest personal reasons why I wanted to adopt a naturalist lifestyle was to break this social conditioning I’d been subject to my entire life. I wanted to be able to look at a person, regardless of their style of dress, and be able to see them as God sees them; as a human soul and my spiritual sibling, not as a sexual object to lust after.

Buniya Pure

http://www.lupin.com/women.html

A very inspiring article on how naturism can heal our mindsets. I only felt closer to Heavenly Father as I read this, and I do not feel that He was in the least bit offended that I read AND learned from it. I think we can all benefit from it, for those who are interested in reading the article. It’s targeted towards women, but the principle applies to either gender. Enjoy!

Also, this is good as well!:

http://www.lupin.com/whowins.html

The Standard of Truth – Part 5 – Repost from ldssdc.info

Where as ldssdc.info is no longer available, I’m reposting this to keep the information available.

The Standard of Truth – Part 5

What’s the Truth About Nudity and Sexual Body Parts?

By Michael S. Ai, Southern California

The belief that “nudity equals sex” is one of the most dominant and emotionally-charged beliefs in our U.S. society.

It seems to be intertwined into so many areas of our lives that I don’t think we can afford to ignore it and just accept it without analysis.This belief has existed for centuries, dating back to the dark ages. And in some ways, it continues to gain strength in our society today, not throughout the world, but primarily in the U.S.

The “nudity equals sex” belief focuses on the idea that some body parts are sexual and should, therefore, be covered up in order to prevent sexual thought, or lust, in one’s self and/or in others.

Read more

The Standard of Truth – Part 4 – Repost from ldssdc.info

Where as ldssdc.info is no longer available, I’m reposting this to keep the information available.

The Standard of Truth – Part 4

What’s the Truth about the Sacredness of the Body and Nudity?

By Michael S. Ai, Southern California

“The body is sacred; therefore, cover it.”

This is probably the most common argument used by the “nudity is evil” proponents. This belief provides the reasoning for the rest of their arguments.

From this perspective, God gave Adam & Eve the coats of skins to cover their nakedness “because their bodies are sacred and should be covered.” The coats of skins represent the garment of the Holy Priesthood and should be worn at all times “because the body is sacred and should be covered.”

Interestingly, the reason for the “coats of skin” was never given, other than to “cover their nakedness.” On the other hand, when we take symbolic interpretation, we find that the reason is clearly given, and it has nothing to do with physical clothing or the body itself.

Now, the fascinating thing about this “cover the body because it’s sacred” argument is that it’s the argument that’s riddled with the most glaring inconsistencies and contradictions.

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The Standard of Truth Part 3 – Repost from ldssdc.info

Where as ldssdc.info is no longer available, I’m reposting this to keep the information available.

The Standard of Truth Part 3

What’s the Truth about Garments and Nudity?

By Michael S. Ai, Southern California

According to the literal interpretation of the Adam & Eve story, after Adam & Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden for partaking of the forbidden fruit, God gave them coats of skin “to cover their nakedness.”

We’re instructed that these coats of skin represented the “garment of the holy priesthood.” Those to whom the garment is given are instructed to wear it night and day throughout their lives.

Using a literal interpretation to the above, the following conclusions have been drawn:

  • Because God gave Adam and Eve coats of skin to cover their nakedness, nudity is against God’s will, making it evil
  • The garment is to be worn at all times

Do these conclusions meet the Standard of Truth?

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The Standard of Truth Part 2 – Repost from ldssdc.info

Where as ldssdc.info is no longer available, I’m reposting this to keep the information available.

The Standard of Truth Part 2

What’s the Truth regarding Adam and Eve’s nakedness in the Garden of Eden?

By Michael S. Ai, Southern California

The story of Adam and Eve is one of the primary arguments used by the proponents of the “nudity is evil” concept. Since it’s one of the first stories in scripture, I’ll examine this argument first.

As with all scripture, we have two interpretive paradigms: (1) literal interpretation, in which the words of the scripture are taken at their literal meaning; and (2) symbolic interpretation, in which the symbols of the scripture are examined for their representative meaning.

The symbolic interpretation, by its very nature, produces many levels of meaning depending on the interpreter’s ability to understand and readiness to accept the deeper truths. The deeper we go with symbolic interpretation, the closer we get to understanding the mysteries of godliness, or in other words, the knowledge of God.

This knowledge of God, which is required for our becoming gods, is buried deep in symbolism so that only those who truly desire to possess it can access it.

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The Standard of Truth – Part 1 Repost from old ldssdc.info

Where as ldssdc.info is no longer available, I’m reposting this to keep the information available.

The Standard of Truth Part 1

What is Truth…and what does it have to do with wholesome family and social nudity?

By Michael S. Ai, Southern California

In the beginning God said: “Let there be light.”

What is light?

All throughout the scriptures we’re taught about light. Through diligent study we learn that “light is life” and “darkness is death.”

In D&C 50:23, 24, we read:

“And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.”

In John 1:5-7, we read:

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

So, again, what is light?

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